Abe1x

I hate blaming other people, but this one really is someone else fault, we ordered black merino fabric and the mill refused to ship it because it failed their internal quality standards. Annoying but at the same time there is a reason why their merinos are better than rest, good things take a long time to get right. We see black tees as a core product so we're trying to get to a point where we can always have them in stock.

that's not the manufacturer, but yeah the fabric we use is a military fabric and it's available in green for the army and blue for the air force. We've looked into doing custom colors and it might happen one day, but the minimums are crazy. With the amount of yards we'd need to do just one custom color Schoeller would let us do 25 custom colors, so it's not something we are looking to move into quickly... 

Doubt that is accurate

Are we talking about techwear as in clothing with technical features, or clothing which is manufactured using some technically advanced methods, but doesn't perform any differently than any other similar clothing? personally I consider techwear as the former, but all the designers you mentioned fall into the latter.

Should have been clearer, was really mentioning those for the "runway fashion" section. Regardless I think they are all important to mention because tech evolves by dialogue and the fashion designers pushing the tech are just as much a part of it as the tech designers doing fashion. Sometimes it's the tech side leading (like Arc' inventing water resistant zippers) but other times it someone like Van Herpen leading when she's doing 3D printed haute couture with MIT fluid dynamics scientists.

On a patternmaking level the stuff becomes clearer. The stuff Veilance, Acronym and to some extent Crye are doing is closely related to what CCP, BBS and Rick Owens are doing.

Hey Dressed Down, impressive work, thanks for putting it together. It's already pretty broad in scope but here are some suggestions on extending it. 

Surprised not to see any mention of Neil Barrett & Puma 96 Hours. Barrett launched Prada Menswear and Prada Sport as such really was the key designer in Techwear's most populist moment. His own label is still going strong although it hasn't particularly evolved much since 2000. He did a bunch of designs for Puma 96 Hours along with Chalayan and Vexed Generation. I guess this line was guilty of bad timing, it was very deliberately an urban techwear line right at the nadir of the style in the mid 00s, but that aside it's pretty much an essential mention.

More contemporarily Carol Christian Poell, Iris Van Herpen, Nicolas Ghesquière and Boris Bidjan Saberi all really deserve to be in the fashion/tech section. The first three because they are clearly pushing the technology far harder than the rest, and BBS because he's bringing a major skate/streetwear influence in (plus he's a killer patternmaker who clearly thinks a lot about motion). 

On the military side, didn't see any mention of Crye or Otte. 

Also really would love to see a new section on the history of it all. Massimo Osti is the godfather of course and only some of his labels are mentioned. Also be cool to see stuff about pioneering labels like Sabatoge and Vexed Generation. There is also a whole world of rave and club labels that embraced very technical aesthetics without really being technical. Anarchic Adjustment, Liquid Sky, Daniel Poole, Cassette Playa and tons more. Also loads of interesting stuff to be dug out of the history of outdoor gear, particularly all the stuff going on in the late 70's when Gore emerged. 

Finally maybe worth mentioning some of the labels that while they feel heritage today actually were born as super technical labels. Mackintosh in particular, as they invented waterproof fabrics, and while I haven't see it documented I suspect seam sealing as well. Turn a Mackintosh inside out and you'll find something that looks a whole lot like a Arcteryx, except that they were doing all that stuff over a century before Arc came into existence. Similarly Burberry started by inventing Gabardine, which offered the best water resistance/breathablity combo at the time. Their iconic trench coats were military garments, designed for trench warfare in WW 1 and if you break one apart you'll find an incredibly purpose driven functional garment. Levis is worth mentioning too, they invented jeans by riveting seams together for strength and used tent fabric for extra durability. 

hope that's helpful. 

Anybody have any experience with their merino tees? I want one but all the pictures show that you could see your nipples though it. Is that how thin they are, or is it just the models are very cold? lol

Are you talking about the Baselayers or the T-Shirts? You can't see nipples on the T-Shirts except possibly the Near White. The Baselayers you can but it has nothing to do with thinness, they are designed to fit significantly tighter than the T-Shirts and be worn as an undershirt, plus the ribbed knit stretches more. For wearing like a tee I'd recommend sizing up and your nipples will vanish, or just waiting for the actual T-Shirts to return (should be soon, no black though due to a fuck up beyond our control). 

As for weight/thinness, the Baselayer fabric is 200gsm while the T-Shirt fabric is 190gsm, while most other companies seem to be focusing on the 150-160gsm range for the bulk of their goods.

My off-white Rapha V-neck is partly see-through even when dry. I haven't gotten an Outlier merino tee though.

Pretty sure one the Rapha designers once told me they were using something like 90gsm merino, which is insanely light. Most people tend towards 150-160gsm and we use 190gsm in ours. That said the near white is still slightly transparent. No matter what the weight though I would never recommend wearing white merino as anything but an undershirt. It's just not white enough and never will look like a crisp white cotton tee. We've been asking all the merino people for a true white forever but in the end the sheep are sort of yellow colored and nothing can take that away. This isn't a new problem either people have been trying to make whiter wool for centuries... The stuff we are using is whiter than you could get just 3-4 years ago, but all the mills we've talked to seem to have given up on pushing it even further. If they do though we'll certainly be all over it.

abe: any plans to increase the size of the pocket on the pivot sleeve shirts so that they can hold an iphone?

also, anyone have the off-white merino tee? thinking about getting one, concerned that it might be see-throughy, particularly when it gets a little wet. not sure how thick the tees are, haven't gotten one ever.

Lots of shirt iteration in process right now so yeah, might happen. I personally like it as is for the iphone. It doesn't go all the way in, but the storm flap actually tightens against pocket to make a more secure hold. Obviously different people have different tastes, but I can at least guarantee that whatever we release with shirt pockets will be tested with iPhones.

Ugh just realized when I ordered my 3 way longs that they sent me navy instead of black, at least that's what it seems like since my shorts look exactly like their navy swatch and nothing like the black ones. Bummer.

We just got the navy in yesterday morning and started shipping today so it's unlikely you got a navy. The black in that 4Season isn't as black as ideal due to the way the stretch cordura fibres reflect light. If you look the back face, with the looser poly fibers you should notice they are a blacker black. We've been harassing Schoeller about this for a while but they haven't been able to do anything about it. It's almost certainly a fiber/weave thing though as the Workcloth uses the exact same color dye and comes in significantly blacker.

Thanks, last question...

...In your opinion what do you think is your best pair of pants to be used as daily riders? Not an office guy, but on the bike 365 and outside all the time.

Either Climbers or one of the Dungarees (Slim for most people, Keirin if you have a small waist but cyclist thighs).

The Climbers will give you the most freedom of motion. Dungarees have more structure but still move well.

Yeah years.

@jilla82 we've never seen the 4season fabric (used in the Climbers, OGs Womens Daily Riders and 3Way Shorts) wear through from daily cycling. The softer innerface of the doubleweave will eventually wear away, but the outerface can take an incredible amount of repetitive motion. Obviously crashing, getting caught on a nail or what not can tear it, but there are quite a few pairs that have seen 2 or 3 of heavy use now that are still going strong.

@SuE that Shell looks like it fits as intended. It's designed to be worn as an outer layer with both a mid layer and an insulation piece under it. If we do it again a XXS could be an option, as it does merit sizing down for warmer weather usage.

As for two layers of ventile, steph is right it won't be as waterproof as Gore, but it will be pretty damn good for urban use in anything less than hurricane or messengering-all-day-in-the-rain like conditions. Also will be quieter and less likely to make you sweat/overheat

Also fwiw spent a few days in a LEAF pro shell piece cause of this thread and my opinion is the same, too loud and too hot.

@Lloyd - sorry about that, we've been testing some of shoeller's new drug delivery textiles. If the effects ever last longer than 12hrs please consult a doctor.

@Tigerprawn - both subject to heated debate over here.

@jaac - There will be better grays available at some point in the future.

@Brainboy, sorry response got lost in the shuffle. We've tested new Pro stuff and its still hot and sweaty Goretex. Haven't tested the active shell stuff yet but Gore is so restrictive with what people can build with it I'm not sure it's worth the bother. Of all the membranes out now my favorite is Neoshell by far, but it's still too loud and sweaty for my tastes.

Yeah see what you are getting at, it's just that softshell, while poorly defined, tends to indicate stretch fabrics with fleece backing. The ventiles are thin and are the opposite of stretchy, they barely even stretch on the bias. We just see them as a class of their own.

Yes that's true, but modern ventiles take hours to wet out and dry quickly due to the dwr. If you compare them to how archival ventile peices behave you'll notice the difference clearly, the non dwr stuff wets out and stiffens immediately.

Hah, for obvious reasons I don't think ventile is overhyped, but Steph brings up some important points.

First off the stuff isn't waterproof, we pretty much shouted that in the recent copy. If you need serious 10,000-20,000m+ water column water resistance you need to go with a membrane (gore, event, neoshell, c-change, etc). Why we love it so much is it has a unique combination of high water resistance, high breathablity and great handfeel.

Basically it's stuff you can wear everyday and if it happens to rain it offers a decent level of protection. You just can't do that with a membrane, with a jacket they can be ok when open and inactive but move at all and they become sweatboxes. And forget about making a shirt out of a membrane fabric, it'd be insufferable.

As for its durability, in most respects its an incredibly durable fabric and can last for years or even decades (we have some old British Navy gear from the 50s that has clearly been through hell). However there are a few things to bear in mind. One it's really lightweight, the most common weight is 200gsm or about 6oz, while most denim clocks in at 12-14oz. Secondly because it is so tightly woven and is a plain weave, when it does fail it can fail spectacularly, especially if it is sewn wrong. The first time we made prototype pants was pretty embarrassing... When done right though it can last for a hell of a long time.

As for weights, there a lot. The Swiss had 3 main ones(170,200,240gsm) and just added a 275gsm. They also have a 300gsm that is basically only used by NATO because its narrow goods and even more expensive. The British branded stuff is coming from the same source and identical, but not sure if they have the new weight.

For shirts we've mainly been using the Italian version. They go down to 140gsm which is what we'll be using for rain shirts going forward as its by far the most shirt like. The original shirt was done in 200gsm and we just might have something similar but new coming...

@tigerprawn Velcro is a trade name but there are knockoff hook and loop fasteners for sure and they definitely get used in a lot of outdoor gear. I can't recall any genuine Velcro branded hook and loop failing, but yeah the cheap stuff is another story.

All told we still think it makes for the best simple cuff closure on a shell layer. We're investigating other alternatives of course but there is a reason you see it used in say LEAF, Crye and FYI's Patagonia stuff still.

Sorry, I think there are some typos in this sentence so the meaning gets lost. Be cool if you could clarify.

Anyways, big fan, keep up the good work.

Should be "that clean that up"

Also "dirt" is a tailors term for excess fabric

does anyone know if the three way long shorts are going to be restocked for summer?

Yes

Elastane does make snaps work a bit better, but snaps are still digital and annoying to adjust when not done just right.

Not sure what you mean about velcro aging. The hook side definitely can get dirty with stuff stuck in it, not ideal but it's also not visible except when you adjust it. We have 30+ year old pieces in our archives with velcro that works great. Elastane on the other hand breaks down and fails as it ages, velcro is a far more durable option.

Wow, had no idea there was some much passionate hate for velcro. Would love to here more about why really as its the sort of stuff we think way too much about at Outlier.

As for why we used it. For one in a shell we think it's key to have an analog not digital (in the old school sense of the terms) closure at the wrist. The wrist is one of the main where your arteries get closest to your skin, which makes it a critical spot for temperature regulation. The more air flow that goes over them the quicker you cool down. Since the shell layer is generally the most wind resistant/proof layer you have on it's the one that needs the most wrist adjustment.

Digital closures like snaps and buttons just don't offer the right range of closure options at such a key juncture, they require too much space in between each stop to dial in. Of the analog closures, things like shock cord + a cord stop, or webbing + slider, present a whole cord management problem. No one wants that sort of stuff whipping around off their wrists. Velcro by contrast gives you a wide range of closure, the ability to fine tune it precisely and it lies really flat. When the hook side of the velcro is applied on the strap (as opposed to the sleeve body) it also virtually eliminates any hook to soft clothing interaction which is the reason we rarely use velcro in other places.

All that said when we make garments at Outlier we tend to focus on one or two key issues. With the Shell we focused mainly on movement particularly in the arms, shoulders and hood. Most outdoor brand shells get arm movement by adding tons dirt to the shoulder area and we wanted to see if we could make a shell that that up. We spent some time on the wrist closures of course but we weren't trying to reinvent anything there. We are working on another project that does focus on the wrist, but it's far from ready, no promises on when it's done...

Arc'teryx CEO "resigns"

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/05/29/arcteryx-ceo-tyler-jordan-resigns/

There is definitely a lot of missing info, sounds like Amer wants Arc to grow pretty damn fast.

Also Nike is divesting Cole Haan and Umbro, no idea what that means for things like the Lunargrands and Umbro Aitor Throop stuff...

http://online.wsj.com/article/bt-co-20120531-715584.html

So I attempted to dye my outlier wool backs black yesterday, they didn't quite make it there, but are pretty close. I'm not sure if this has To do with the face that I used cold water in the washing machine, or that they'll just need another round with the dye.

The nanosphere is going to actively repell the dye at first, but once it wets out it should start dying. I'd double or triple the exposure time and maybe if there is a high agitation setting try that.

yep, never believe everything the fabric companies tell you... Knowing how to make amazing cloth and being able to explain what it does in clear English are very different skills...