sweet orr

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I make wine

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on Jul 25, 2005 04:24 PM

do you really make wine? that sounds like a amzing occupation. do you work at a large vinyard / winery or do you have your own small buisness?

sweet-orr

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after i posted this question, i saw an informative page on this line on their website:

http://www.45rpm.jp/denim/detail.jsp?id=004

really interesting. Now I am kicking myself for not picking up a pair..

thanks for the info, what do you mean by 'grin'?

--- Original message by soultek on Jul 24, 2005 01:33 AM

when the weft (white yarn) shows through to the top surface of the denim in an open or looser weave.

sweet-orr

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I got these jeans at the Goodwill for $4.95.

I turned the jeans inside out, no tags at all, and nothing stamped on the pocket bags. If it had a leather tag, how was the tag attached?

On the back of all the hidden rivets (and only the hidden rivets) is the number 15. Mean anything?

The button tacks on the fly are copper (I think). The back shank on the top button is not copper, it appears to be the same kind of metal as the front of the buttons. 5 buttons total.

Where do I send the pictures to Levi's? Is it on their website?

--- Original message by bruben on Jul 23, 2005 11:21 AM

based on the info you gave and the pictures id say they are authentic vintage. i would say that if put on ebay depending on the size and whos bidding, you would get between 500 and 1200 dollars. they arnt super rare in this condition, but still an amazing find at goodwill. darker pairs with patches in tact fetch more money.

there is one more test to check authenticity. vintage xx levis have all cotton thread. not many repros, except a few small japanese companies use all cotton thread. modern thread has poly content in it. take a loose piece of the sewing thread about 3/4" to 1" long and burn it. if the thread just burns with no residue left over its all cotton, if when it stops there is a little black "ball" it has poly content.

the button fly shanks are actually copper and not oxidised, ive never seen that. im pretty sure that universal fasteners (who made and still makes all levis hardware) at the time only made steel 2 prong tacks that were used to attach buttons. now they use brass(to prevent rusting) and plate them to look like diffant metals (copper, nickle etc..)copper was too soft and weak for this type of tack.

sometimes you will see a number or letter on the back of the top button or rear rivit tacks. these numbers or letters were used to code which facilty or the garment came from. levis still uses this today. i do not know where "15" is.

i dont know the levis sight to send pictures, but id say that all the info you recieved on this message thread from here is enough to tell you that based on the information you have provided you have an authentic 501xx leather patch model. leather patch xx models value isnt so much affected by the exact year, but more by size, color, condition, character etc..

hope this helps

sweet-orr

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based on what i know, i would date these jeans either pre-WWII or late 40s. the primary reason being the offset beltloop was used from 50-66, and the single sided levi's print was from 37-50. pre-37, you would have the suspender buttons. the interesting part is your jeans does not have the crotch rivet, which was still found on the 37 model. i suspect this pair was made pre-WWII or late 40s as we all know the WWII period jeans have painted arcuates. so...late 30's or late 40s would be my best estimate.

or...it's a very good fake

your best bet would be sending these pictures to levi's themselves and get an official estimate.

anyhow, you have something very interesting on your hands.

--- Original message by darknworn on Jul 22, 2005 10:43 PM

pre ww2 models were usually bucklebacks with the crotch rivit and hand stitched arcuates. late 30s would usually have had the buckle, they indefinatly removed the buckle at ww2. they did however make non buckleback / non crotch rivit 501 in the late 30s for a few years. at this time the 501xx that still had the buckle were stamped as 501XXc (cinch-i guess) on the leather patch. this is rare, ive only seen photos.

what is odd to me is that all buckleback models have the arcuate done in single needle- and is uneven. i have never seen a non-buckleback model with a single stitched arcuate. its seems odd to me that levis would have done the arcuate one way on buckleback models (single needle) and a differant way (double needle with the "triangle") on non buckleback models during the same time period. this leads me to believe that her jeans are post ww2.

the white part of selvedge is sometimes differant on pre 1940s models. sometimes a wider white selvedge edge is present.

sweet-orr

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It's not so bad although denim afficionados may disagree. I like the attention to detail and the fabric. Having said that, my APC English are still tops!

--- Original message by john11f on Jul 22, 2005 11:29 PM

i like the loomstate jeans. not selvedge, but the fabric is from ortas home spun organic cotton collection and is really nice. this fabrics shade really unique. i think this fabric looks better / more authentic than alot of selvedge. the hardware is also really cool.

sweet-orr

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if the red tab is single sided then its late 40's after all (hey we tried didn't we sweet orr?), and it would have had a leather patch. if it isn't there it must have been removed - although i couldn't begin to guess why - as it certainly left the factory with a patch of some kind.

did you get them from a reliable source? what else do you know about them?

as for the selvage, the redline often fades to pink. that said, lady levis used a pink selvage ...but thats a whole other post...

i have to say i'm very surprised that there are no tags at all.. (have you turned them completely inside out as well?)

well you're definately right this is SO interesting

and as for the model of jean, from one of your pics it looks like there are 5 buttons on the fly opening, which seems like a standard 501. also... and don't quote me on this.. but wasn't the 506 a later generation orange tab with a lower rise, zipper fly and a narrower leg opening?

--- Original message by jdavis on Jul 22, 2005 10:06 PM

leather patch more often is missing. if they were washed in a machine and heat dried the patch would dry up or fall apart. sometimes you see the patch all shrivelled up. but they usually dont stand the test of time. leather patch makes the jeans very valuable.

old levis didnt have any inner tags at all. sometimes you will find a few numbers stamped on the pocket bags.

its also unusual to see a bright red selvedge line on vintage . even my close to deadstock redlines look a little more pink.

the blank back shank tack on top button is fairly common. also, from your picture it looks like the button tacks on the fly are darker than the top button. are they oxidized-rusted steel or are they copper? ive never seen copper back tacks on authentic levis.

they are 501. xx models only came in

501xx-5 button fly shrink to fit

501zxx-zipper fly shrink to fit

551zxx-pre-shrunk 14 oz zipper

503bxx-boys 3 button fly shrink to fit

503zxx-boys zipper shrink to fit

505xx-1960s replaced 501zxx

701xx-womens

there are few other but the above are most common.

506 is pegged orange tab zip fly.

sweet-orr

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Hi Betsy, i can give you a bit of help

the golden arch on the back pocket - aka the 'arcuates' - meets with a diamond. this is found on all 1947+ Levis. the hidden rivets were in place untill 1966, at which time they were discontinued.

i'd venture out and guess that its a mid 50s to mid 60s design.. only because the card stock of the rear tag wasn't as strong as leather... and could therefore wear-off easier.. also presumably the absense of coin pocket selvage would occur later on in the big E generation... like perhaps closer to 1966

unfortunately, i don't know too much about rivets or buttons or coin pocket selvage (but i'd really like too)

hope this helps

what does everyone else think?

--- Original message by jdavis on Jul 22, 2005 05:01 PM

the coin pocket with selvedge varies. i have 2 pairs 501xx leather patch jeans with no coin pocket selvedge and a 503bxx model from the same period that has it. i think it really depended on how the markers were laid out during production to have minimum fabric waste. also, sometimes you will see the fly placket and button placket cut in differant grain directions.

sweet-orr

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I should have paid more attention when i was in NY but i didn't.

Does anyone have any comments about 45rpm's new line of lightweight denim? Is it a traditional 5pocket type jean? Approximate weight of denim? Cost? Anyone own a pair? Pics?

thanks.

--- Original message by soultek on Jul 22, 2005 04:03 PM

bc4000 denim is the lt weight denim. i have a rinsed pair. is a traditional levi xx type construction and fit. it fits looser than the regular sorihiko jeans. i actually like this fit better than the regular jeans. the fabric looks very open with a good amount of grin through- i think its like a 9 oz . very unique fabric. comes in black also. i dont have camera here, sorry..

sweet-orr

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Hi Betsy, i can give you a bit of help

the golden arch on the back pocket - aka the 'arcuates' - meets with a diamond. this is found on all 1947+ Levis. the hidden rivets were in place untill 1966, at which time they were discontinued.

i'd venture out and guess that its a mid 50s to mid 60s design.. only because the card stock of the rear tag wasn't as strong as leather... and could therefore wear-off easier.. also presumably the absense of coin pocket selvage would occur later on in the big E generation... like perhaps closer to 1966

unfortunately, i don't know too much about rivets or buttons or coin pocket selvage (but i'd really like too)

hope this helps

what does everyone else think?

--- Original message by jdavis on Jul 22, 2005 05:01 PM

check to see if red tab has levis on one side or on both. if levis is on one side only than its an earlier 1947 to 1950 model. the hidden rivits were used until 1965, so its late 40s to early 60s. hidden rivit jeans are referd to by collectors as xx.

xx jeans are classified to 3 periods, late 40s to early 1950s which had the real leather patch, mid 50s to early 1960s with the paper patch that read "every garment garunteed", and the 1960s models had that slogan removed from the paper patch. check to see if there are any rements of the leather patch left. also, some earlier xx models had rivit tacks in the rear pockets that were steel and not copper. often you see early xx jeans with rust stains near the pockets. later ones all had copper. ive seen them both ways on leather patch models. im going to guess by the photos provided they are mid 1950s. check the red tab, it will help answer questions.

sweet-orr

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I have the repro of the 1879 "first blouse" sweet orr. I have only seen two around, do you know how many were made?

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on Jul 21, 2005 11:28 PM

hey whats up....

im not sure where they were made... i dont have one...ill ask around today..

sweet-orr

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luckily, evisu just happens to make an exact repro of that jacket. next best thing i suppose.

it'd be cool if lee starts reproducing their old stuff like levi's. i wouldn't mind some selvage pieces without having to sell a lung to support this denim habit.

--- Original message by darknworn on Jul 21, 2005 11:43 AM

you can get a repro of this jacket at the edwin store in tokyo. edwin owns the japan liscense for lee and wrangler and repro alot of pieces.

sweet-orr

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Thos jeans are in great condition! no corrosion on the rivets! I have a book that says the Lee buckleback Cowboy jacket is the rarest and the holy grail of all denim jackets.

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on Jul 21, 2005 11:38 AM

lee cowboy jacket is pretty sick. i've handled a few in the past couple of years, they are really amazing and hard to find. i actually just purchased one for work (cant keep it unfortunatly) from a collector in colorado for $2500.00 , although the buckle was cut off.

sweet-orr

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They are much darker than the pics indicate. They were also just a little "shiny" when I first got them. Must be from some process? But now they are duller looking. worn them maybe like 4 or 5 months, not washed yet.

--- Original message by soultek on Jul 20, 2005 01:13 PM

THE SHINE IS FROM RESIN. THE ARE RESINED AND BAKED. THE RESIN MAKES THE INDIGO CHIP AWAY FASTER FROM THE YARNS, AND KEEPS THE UNWORN AREAS DARKER. THATS ALSO WHTY THEY FEEL SO DRY.

sweet-orr

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Simple. If you could only have 3 pairs of shoes what would they be?

--- Original message by powerglov on Jul 10, 2005 07:38 PM

-1960s black label, low top chuck taylors in black

-1940s usmc brown suede rough out ankle high jump boots

-1930s black brogues with a brown leather sole

sweet-orr

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Denim worker pants with chino (aka french) style pockets have been around long before Rogan and PDC. eg. Lee 903's from around 1914. Since then, they have been done by loads of companies both workwear and 'designer' brands.

I like Rogan. It's definitely a company that knows and cares about denim.

--- Original message by ringring on Jul 20, 2005 04:09 AM

right on-

im not claiming rogan invented denim, slash pockets, workwear etc.. far from it, but he definatly and consciencely brought vintage design details to the for-front of the fashion denim marketplace in the last 5 to 6 years , before alot of other companies even knew anything about vintage denim,most of them still dont.

rogan is a leader in the marketplace, most everyone else is a follower, and takes ideas from companies like his and commercializes them.

what i like about rogan is that he consistanly manages to tie back his design references to something real / vintage and simotanously makes it fresh and new.

sweet-orr

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Rogan is a solid denim brand. I give them props for the whole worker pant thing. Paper did it first with a pant called the icn slash pocket and rogan took a good thing and blew it up. There twist seems are nice. I find them a bit high in the rise, but Im not complaining they're good for what they are...

--- Original message by STOLEN FROM POLAND on Jul 19, 2005 08:32 PM

i actually think rogan had his slash pocket jean models out first about 6 years ago, before paper denim, although both companies started around the same time. rogans first cuts were really-really small numbers and had very small distribution-(the original rigids with the stitch thorough front pockets) i think it took alot longer for rogan to be recognized because his distribution was so much smaller than papers, and still is.im pretty sure the icn came out after paper denim was established. also, rogan started his company pretty much on his own and paper was financly backed by dick gilbert who owns mudd jeans from the beginning. paper is still owned by mudd.

both companies develope thier product at some of the same factories, so naturally you are going to see some similarities.

i also think the rogan jeans are far superior in terms of design detail (thread colors, hardware, labels, contsruction, materials etc..)

i actually dont own any roagn jeans, but i really appreciate the original point of view and attention to detail...

sweet-orr

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can we all just get along.

this isn't the forum for politics. you can't try to solve problems that have been in existence since the founding of ancient greece.

you shouldn't feel guilty because you live in a wealthy and powerful nation. gotta give credit where credit's due. our ways of economic and political organizations have proven to give us what we want over the past two hundred years. but with wealthy and power comes responsibility. this second half of the equation seems to have been drowned out in popular and media cultures lately...and not enough people can be bothered to look for it. people fundamentally do not want to change, and the more you try to push the issues the harder you will find the resistance. nothing you can do but live according to your conscience. the world will move on its course accordingly.

can we now get back to materialistic discussions please? even i bore myself with this heavy thinking.

--- Original message by darknworn on Jul 19, 2005 07:14 PM

the last thing i want to do is make enimies, so sorry dudes...

....you are totally correct that you shouldnt feel gulity about living in a wealthy nation, i dont, and i enjoy nuturing a healthy/responsible economy. part of my point is that most americans take for granted what they have, and dont even think about what responsiblities they should have...

so anyways- i'll stick to denim...

sweet-orr

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Well if youre so worried than why dont you go over to one of these places and perform charity work, or maybe donate that $300 you were gonna spend on some selvedge. Dont think youre better htan anyone else because youre the same over indulgent american asshole we all are. And germany and france have far worse foreign policy regarding farm subsidies slowing development in the smae places you pointed out...so get real wanting to protect yourself is the real interest every country.

PS- my parents were Indian immigrants

--- Original message by emrinder on Jul 19, 2005 06:24 PM

i never said i was better than anyone else, and i do happen contribute money to various charities and political orginizations. i am sorry if i offended you, but i was illustrating a point that most people overlook, and i stand by my opinion. i am a very conscience consumer, i dont drive a car, and i dont support companies that manufacture things in questionable areas. i am not trying to be self rightous, so sorry if that tone came off...

sweet-orr

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Or has the brand been over commercialized?

--- Original message by john11f on Jul 19, 2005 06:19 AM

i dont think its how big or how much press a company gets that makes it commercial, its if the design integrity is lost in order to have financial sucess.

i think rogans current success was earned the hard way, and he still hasnt comprimised his vision and quality on the rogan line. out of all of the american denim companies, his is really the only one that directionally moved the industry on a global level. he is probably one of the most knocked off designers out there and he hasnt had nearly as much financil sucess as paper /seven / earnest etc..

sweet-orr

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So I've been seriously lacking on my reading game recently, besides the required reading for educational purposes, and magazines/internet crap.

I'm putting it out there for all of you to point me in the direction of some good reads. Something inspirational perhaps.

Anything goes!

--- Original message by powerglov on Jul 17, 2005 10:51 AM

anything by haruki murakami.

try one of his short story collections like

vintage muakami or frogman saves tokyo if you want to start light. can read them through when youre not busy.

sweet-orr

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you know what america is always gonna be great no matter what and i wouldnt live anywhere, just because it might be cool to be anti american doesnt mean you have to hop on the bandwagon. There will be a day when america is led by a moderate government and will the respect of the world again and all of you can flaunt your patriotism once more.

--- Original message by emrinder on Jul 19, 2005 01:37 PM

if the "bandwagon" is the other 150 countries in the world than i guess youre right.

do you know why poverty stricken immigrants want to come to this country? because

a- american industries and the american government exploits their home countries and citizens (mexico, china, middle east etc..) so badly that it would still be better for them to come here, work illegally, for under minimum wages with no health care. or

b- our forign policy fails to protect thier basic human rights!

its not a matter of being cool, its a matter of being aware that almost all global problems that exist today

(war, terrorism, poverty, labor exploitation, chemical and nuclear weapons , polution, drug/medical industry abuse , inflation, natural resource shortages, etc...) are direct results of americas foriegn policy and the american peoples unwillingness to make dramatic lifestyle changes.

most lazy fat-ass americans dont give a shit about anything outside of thier starbucks drinking, mcdonalds eating, walmart shopping, reality tv show watching, hummer driving, pathetic lives. they are too busy wrapped up in thier narrow minded worlds watching pointless telivision shows, listening to britney spears and engaging in blind consumerism, to really make an effort to change anything-look at the last election!

by the time i retire, i will have no social security, no health care, i wont be able to afford medicine, and will have to put my kids through one of the most expensive college systems that exist with little or no help from the government.

this country will never have a truly just government, the 2 party system is designed to keep anyone who isnt wealthy out of high level politics. all the fund raising and lobbiests are either

a-medical/drug companies,

b-oil companies, or

c- media conglomerates.

i dont hate america or americans, but get real- most of the world exists outside of this country- and this is what the rest of the world thinks about the u.s.!

sweet-orr

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here you go:

http://www.americawestandasone.com/mov/America%20We%20Stand%20As%20One.mov

--- Original message by Serge d Nimes on Jul 18, 2005 11:46 PM

this is amazing

sweet-orr

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I'm going to Boston in a couple weeks for a long weekend, and im just wondering what are some good shopping spots.

Any boston supershoppers on here?

I'm looking for mainly streetwear/sneaker boutiques, as well as maybe a few good outlet malls, and some nice higher end stores that carry designer jeans or maybe someone can point me to some polo/lacoste retailers/outlets

thanks in advance guys

--- Original message by homi29 on Jul 18, 2005 09:17 PM

go to louis boston on newbury. theres also a store called ricardi on newbury, its euro-trashy, but carry some decent denim brands. shopping is pretty slim in boston.

if youre into vintage- definatly go to bobby from boston on thayer st. its a showroom but is open to the public by apointment on the weekdays, or on saturdays from 12-6. 3000 square feet- has some good vintage denim..and priced really well.

sweet-orr

i just got back from a trip and picked up 2 pairs of flat head jeans from japan that i really like. this was the first time i bought this brand and am very happy.

i picked up the 3005xx (fit like 501xx) for myself and the 3001 model (skinny tapered) for my girlfriend. both fit amazing, and have differant qualities of 13-14 0z selvedge denim. construction is top notch with hidden rivts etc... we just shrank to fit our jeans and they look great.

anyone else have these or break them in?

sorry no digital camera here...

sweet-orr

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Currently in the market for black selvedge, preferably unwashed and raw.

Straight leg though with some sag to it.

Any suggestions for black raw denim, selvedge or otherwise?

Gracias.

--- Original message by 0ld School on Jul 18, 2005 06:08 AM

45rpm has black selvedge jeans- they are super high quality and break in nice.

sweet-orr