superslim

I think, just to make the use of the term clear here, authenticity means the history of the thing. Who did it first here is the authentic bit.

And clearly, that's Levi's.

XOXO

People who understand fashion labels and not quality, authenticity, and in some cases truth.

Was that harsh?

XOXO

"For mass production mills, I still think the difference between the two is minimal when using the same ingredients. (and as always, there are plenty of examples of gorgeous slubby wide-loom denims, that if you mixed them with random swatches of selvage denims, you'd be hard pressed to pick between what loom made what."

You are totally right RR however the difference then becomes which is more authentic. The narrow ancient loom or small loom naturally producing inconsistancies and character or a wide loom specifically manipulated to produce slubs? All you have to do is throw in a different yarn every so often and you've got yourself an inconsistency. Also, slubs can be forcefully created. It's all about technique for that. Maybe you would like to look up info on the waeving process of fabrics. It's really interesting. I'll look for some names of the books I have read that mention it.

For me the difference between the two is key. One is authentic and the other is created. Both are respected. I mean it takes skill to create inconsistencies and slubs, like art. But I like the authentic bit better.

XOXO

Get out! A center crease! How funny.

I use startch for merchandising purposes. Creates a nice effect when displaying. Spray on like crazy, roll, wrinkle, pinch, hold with close pins, let dry, unroll. Nice.

See this is why Paul T is great. What a random fact. Love it.

Back Pockets: Separate left and right pattern pieces are anatomically enhancing. Most comapnies use one pattern piece for both.

XOXO

Paul T- I'll call Cone again and ask for that CD ROM. Thanks!

Open End: Warp and weft use open end yarns

Right Hand Twill: The diagonal pattern of the weave- runs up to the right.

Left Hand Twill: The twill runs up to the left. Softer.

Broken Twill : Fabric that is woven in a quickly alternating LH / RH pattern. The effect is a zig zag pattern visible on the inside. Less "twist."

3 by 1:Warp yarn travels over 3 weft then under 1

How can you tell?

If inside is significantly lighter then outside

Warp: Yarns running the length of the fabric. Visible on the outside

Weft: Yarns running the width of the fabric. Visible on the inside

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 24, 2005 at 08:41 AM

Of course you can love.

XOXO

No luck huh. Oh well. No Alaska for me...

XOXO

Paul T- What else can you tell us about the looms from Cone? How about the production process from creating fabric on.

Look I'll start...

Ring Spun: The longest cotton fibers from a bushel are twisted together to create a strong highly durable yarn. The yarns are inconsistent in diameter, creating natural slubs & sharp vertical lines when made in to fabric. All of this yields a higher quality and since more cotton is used, denim made from ring spun yarns are more expensive when compared to Open End.

Open End: All cotton fibers long and short are blown together into a fake twist . This is cost effective and often results in plain looking fabric. Because all sorts of sizes of cotton fibers are used here open end fabric is more likely to tear.

Double Ring Spun: Both the warp and the weft use ring spun yarn. ( where is ringring when you need him?)

Let's continue to set the record straight for people who want to learn and discuss the basics.

XOXO

Yes I shop at 45 RPM religiously. Just this Saturday I noticed that they have a female fit that may work for me. I have plans to go there this Saturday and try them on. Very exciting.

And Selvage is in Nolita. I heart Nolita. I have not bothered to go in there much as I had written off the possibility of finding Levi's that fit me. But Mr. Paul T, you have made me a believer and I am so going there after work one day this week.

Urban Sprawl, Look for a PM.

XOXO

So if I can find at least 3 cool stores in Alaska I will be able to get work to sponsor a trip for me there. Anyone got any? PLEASE?

XOXO

So Paul T please let me know if you see ANY of what you just mentioned. I will be on the phone to the store faster then you can hit post on this site.

Due to your dedication to LVC and all things Levi's I will simply have to reapproach the whole thing. Maybe I can figure out how to rock the mens' cuts.

And about Diesel... Their women's slim cuts are rockin right now. Something called the Keate. Does something to the rear of a woman that is amazing. Have your girl give them a try. YOU are sure to like it. ; )

Yep the APC's are the dry ones.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 11:26 AM

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 11:27 AM

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 11:29 AM

"superslim: you might be not cool for school but in our eyes...yeah!;p"

Grrrrr... humph. Glaring eyes. Cranky face. Cool doesn't go with my outfit.

A few people have made some recomendations and asked some questions and maybe the following will address these things.

I actually went back to APC and bought the slim fit and am taking it to a tailor today to have them taken in. This always sketches me out as I am afraid they will come out terrible. But we'll see. I'm really excited about it.

Further proof that I am not too cool: I freaked in Tsubi and bought all the colored jeans. Hot pink. Can you believe it? How rediculously fantastic. Now they are not great quality but they are frekin' hot pink with zippers on the ankles. And they are TIGHT even for little people. Sorry guys sometimes a girl has to let go of the quality for the sheer sillyness of it all. I feel like I did in the ---- grade. C'mon that would give away my age...

Japan. It's a little hard for me to find jeans from Japan. I think about it alot and mostly wish I could find them, but never actually succeed. I wish it was approprite to offer to buy things off of people's bodies. Most importantly I would LOVE to go there. But I need some kind of sugar daddy for that trip and I just... NO.

And vintage Levi's women's just don't fit me well. I'll try them differently- maybe larger or something. The right size...I can't get my butt in there well.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 23, 2005 at 07:47 AM

Thanks Wild_Whiskey

XOXO

Yeah sorry Paul T. Levi's women's fits just don't do it for me. I am "superslim" and I look silly in their things. No disrespect on their line in general. Or, for that matter, their history. As usual Levi's lines have always been better for men. I do have to say that sometimes I just don't understand the big deal behind their mass produced stuff though.

And I'm certainly not cool

And when is some great women's stuff ever going to be available? Something I can really get excited about? Slevage & Raw & Female don't usually go together.

CONE JUST CALLED ME BACK!!! ( Not scared yet)

They said that they still have some of the old looms and they are in use.

There were thousands of them but most are not around anymore.

It is doubtful that they went to Japan but there really is no record as to their location.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 19, 2005 at 10:36 AM

I've called Cone and e-mailed. I left a message with reception for someone to get back to me. The e-mail got bounced back to me. www.cone.com for their contact info if you want to try. Ther receptionist wasn't completley clueless to my question. I also have a few people that work at Levi's that I have contacted. Hopefully there will be some answers within a few days.

I am looking all over the place & in my books for any information regarding specific sales and/ or purchases regarding any vintage looms from the US. I think it is important to keep in mind that somehow Cone has become the primary focus of the antique loom conversation. However they are not the only company that produced denim back in the day. As such I have begun an investigation into the actual names of other small denim manufacturers from 1900-1980 that may have been using these old school looms. I have never looked into or bothered to remember these names before. Any one have any names?

ACG is a good recource for investigation. This is an old old old company who uses tons of looms. Maybe they would have some clues about other comapnies that have since died. Maybe they themselves had access to the old looms at some point.

"Now we are seeing selvage denim which is fake, also having the fake outer stitching. We will also now begin to see real selvage denim but is the machinery being used 1st choice..? It’s all perfectly noticeable when seeing the product from the 1st choice machinery. However, the 1st choice machines that are 99% in Japan must cost a fortune if not being priceless."

Totally. Is there really any way to know what loom is used for what other then taking someone's word for it? It's sketch. The fakes are easy to spot if you know what the reals look like of course. But how deep into the history of the real shit can you get. Heresay is dangerous but sometimes all you've got right? Where is the bottom of this conversation?

ANyway, just checking in. Still working on it...

XOXO

Okay it's gonna be a minute while I look through all these refrences I have. Due to the most recent discussion I'll focus on the collectors bit. I am also almost certain that the looms were collected for collector Niche denim things. That's I what I found when I was on the hunt. But let me get some solid facts.

XOXO

Okay I'm totally going to check all this for you... I don't think it's the Cone ones that I'm refering to but I may be without realizing it. I was more refering to an overall interest in the looms and a purchase of many - not just from Levi's. More like a movement, not a specific purchase. I will gladly geek out and check my refrences for more specifics. Wink. Then maybe we can really set the whole record straight.

The book- not sure what a duotone pix is (sorry) but the first page says "Pre- 1920's" I am sure you have it.

The loom I had access to was in Japan just ouside Tokyo. It was seriously rediculous to find one... It took a small army months of really difficult work only to be overwhelmed by the cost. My heart is still a little broken. And also uncertain. If there are some in the US I really couldn't find them and I called everywhere and begged. If you know of Cone still having them for sure please do let me know more. I would really very much so appreciate it.

Thanks!

Your new BFF

Me

XOXO

Carpe Diem.

Hand made

Buku money but worth every penny.

Barney's Madison Ave

XOXO

Actually you can look up the purchasing of the US looms in

" A Visual History of Jeanswear" American Originals by William Gilchrist and Roberto Manzotti. If it's not in there specifically I have a whole library of other possibilities.

Open Seam v Busted: I chose the word that was the most visual. The more information the better though, your right.

Japanese peeps sure do have their own looms and most of the old school US vintage ones as well. My point is only the location of the American looms, not about the making of Japanese denim and certainly not denim produced by big Japanese companies. It wasn't big Japanese denim makers that bought these looms either by the way. For the most part it was smaller companies or collectors with an interest. And what are the owners of the looms doing with them? Who knows. But I do know that I paid a small fortune for access to one. If you want to find a vintage american loom you'll have a much easier time in Japan then you will here. Try. I sure did.

XOXO

Edited by superslim on May 18, 2005 at 01:07 PM

Edited by superslim on May 18, 2005 at 01:08 PM

I once attempeted a very wrong gymnastic move in a pair of jeans. I don't know who I thought I was but it ended with my tooth going through my lip and into my knee. There is a georgeous blood stain in the knee of my favorite superslim jeans from my tore open lip. It's the only scar that remains from the famed gymnastic stunt.

Really.

XOXO

It's just because I am facinated with the history of things... want to share...

Back in the day, and even now, bolts of fabric would be moved around a lot causing the edges of the fabric to get all screwed up. The edge of the fabric was then woven differently to prevent it from fraying. It was woven tighter.

Old looms up until the 60's were 28-30 inches wide. That's pretty narrow. So when laying out the pattern pieces for a basic 5 pocket construction the leg pannel would be laid against the long side of the fabric against the selvage. This was simply more economical. When the pant was constructed with an open seam, it would clearly show the selvage. The bigger denim manufacturers would produce denim for different companies. And that's where the signifigance of color comes in. For example Levi's would always use Red, Lee=Yellow, Wrangler=White ( I think) and Diesel=Orange. ( That's right, Diesel c. 1978) though) Currently the color of the woven threads on the selvage are for fashion only. Unless you are one of the original compaies using your original color.

In the 70's bigger looms were made and it was more economical for companies to use them. More pattern pieces could be laid down and more jeans constructed. Because the pattern pieces were laid down differently the selvage edge was no longer used.

In the early 80's ( wow. I'm really geeking out) the Japanese were super into vintage Americana. As part of this phenomenon Japanese denim companies bought most of the old looms. And American companies (so typical) were eager to get rid of the old looms for bigger more economical more prouction capacity looms. As such today, most funtional vintage looms are in Japan.

The signifigance of Selvage in denim happens in a few ways... I wish I could figure out how to post a picture because that would make it so much easier to explain.. If you want to see what I mean just e-mail me...

Okay...

Open seam. Since an open seam does not contain any stitching of the end of the fabric this is a good indication of the selvage factor.

Selvage procuced now only means that the denim was produced on a rare antique loom. That in and of it's self is pretty cool. At the same time a vintage loom produces more character for the denim. There will definitley be an inconsistent weave, more slubs, etc.

Open seam is also what gives good tracking. But so can a fell seam. A fell seam lays flat like an open seam but has a stich at the end of the fabric. All good tracking means is that the inside seam- fell or open- was laid flat for the majority of the pants lifetime. It creates a really attractive dark ( with lighter highlights on the bumps) area near the inside seam visible on the outside of the pant.

A whip stitch or a fell seam does not indicate selvage ( as it pertains to it's signifigance to denim) in any way. It does't necessarily mean that the denim is not from an old loom. Back in the day people didn't care about the selvage as we do now so showing that selvage edge of the fabric wasn't a key factor. But it can be a clear indication that it is not. Better safe then sorry just don't buy it.

Closed seams... hmmmm... This is not just an indicator of crap. It usually is, but at the same time it serves it's purpose. Tapered and flared ( sometimes straight leg, but less often) construction calls for the fabric to be cut on an angel. There is no way to get the all telling selvage edge of the fabric to appear on these cuts.

So anyway. Selvage produced currently only means that it is produced on a vinatge loom and will show more character. These looms are very rare. And how this all happend is all kind of interesting if you ask me.

XOXO

As long as you hold on tight to control of your distribution you will be fine. Stay at more exclusive wholesale accounts, be sure you visit the stores before you do business. Say no to accounts you wouldn't want to shop in. Hold it close to your chest love. You seem smart. You'll be fine. It really is this easy. Companies that end up wacked like Evisu and Bape sold themselves to Ben Sherman and Farell. Maybe the design teams didn't change but the distribution sure did. But I am sure you already know this. Don't worry so much.

I think exclusive matters but style matters just as much. Seeing someone in the same pants as me is not so much of an issue. At the same time I will absolutley not wear any True Religion, 575, 1921, Paper, James, Seven, Duarte, Levi's, etc. So when I see someone with the same pants I think " Right on obviously they know their shit." Besides they are certainly not wearing them the same way as me so who really cares. But I am a girl and for girls pants look different depending on body type so it's easier not to care. It's only partly about the maker, the rest is how good your butt looks. When someone has the same shirt on as me it's a little worse. Especially if it is printed on. For some reason, shirts are more personal. There is nothing better then spotting someone who clearly thinks they are too cool for school wearing the same shirt as someone else in the bar. Calls them right out on their shit. And frnakly, it is embarassing. You are totally right.

Buying exclusive for exclusive sake is easy. You don't have to have style to buy exclusive things, you just have to know something. But buying something mainstream is clearly easier and 100% lame. Having great style and knowing your shit and having really excellent pieces. That's where it's at.

SO to answer your question, if I found your shirt at Opening Ceremony I would think, " huh... who is this now? " and if I liked it I would buy it. And if I saw it 3 months later at Barney's I might be okay with that. But if I saw it 3 months after that at Scoop I'd sell it on e-bay for sure.

I will say that now I really want to know what your shirts look like.

XOXO

Seriously trying to see if there are shop somewhere elese other than NY and LA.

What about:

North and South Carolina? Chapel Hill is pretty damn Idie Rock.

How about Omaha? There is some GREAT music that comes out of there. There has to be the gear to back it up ( www.saddle-creek.com for the music)

Ohio

Minnesota

Michigan

Are there any cool stores at all in these places?

Let me know.

And if there isn't, maybe we should open one?

XOXO

Atlanta Stores worth checking out:

Blue Genes

Bill Hallman

Look up Rogan's distro list on their site.

That will help you!

XOXO

I strongly urge anyone interested in finding Diesel selvedge or Japanese denim to go to the Denim Gallery. It's there. And if they don't have any left, they will let you know when it's coming.

XOXO