misteraven

to be honest, i'm not at all a fan of the quality in terms of the blank itself. i've owned several and most tend to twist and shrink unevenly after washing kinda like the fabric isn't preshrunk or prewashed. the actual printing on the other hand, is superb. the level of detail and sick registration in screenprints that at times include a half dozen inks or more is sick. the bape vs kaws tee that had the bape camo pattern outline of kaws' running chum character is an example of how on point the print quality is. i also happen to like the addition of the woven label on the sleeve since most companies don't bother. perhaps not enough to justify the price points being charged, but none the less...

oh yeah, the color blended blanks they were doing afew years back we're kinda nice as well.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nsinbath/linksshops.htm

surprises me that people think that catering to hip hop is going to kill the label. when you consider ecko rakes in up over $350 million, sean john is topping $400 million, and the rest of urban apparel reflecting similar sales, what makes you think bape won't do the same? especially since their product is that much better quality/design? whether he sold out the core demographic that got bape the hype it now is capatilizing on is another story, but seriously... you think nigo really gives a shit about that, considering his life style and tastes? he's now on his way to be the coolest of the cool to a much broader and powerful echelon of consumers, and will probably be able to grow his company (and pockets) to a magnitude that makes his current wealth trivial.

i'm not saying he's making the right decision (or the wrong one for that matter), but when you think it through and realize the returns, you almost have to give him props for maintaining the patience and strategy to not have gone that route sooner. when he has a fleet of rolls royces (rather than just one), and a palacial apartments in the USA in addition to japan, as well as multi-platinum artists (and their respective power and wealth) hanging on his every move (as opposed to fashion victim japanese kids and hipsters), i doubt he'll look back with any regrets.

Edited by misteraven on Dec 16, 2004 at 10:29 AM

try the 'duty free' section of this forum. it's new and still building momentum, but there are related sections that get slammed...

http://www.12ozprophet.com/forum

you guys should really be looking at 45rpm. Their denim is nuts.

shuttle loom denim has a weird twist to them that makes the legs on a pair of pants sort of twist a little. though other manufacturing methods seem to now be trying to mimic this look.

seen them at union and alife (before the levi's collabo).

surprised you guys like the collar. i hate a stretched out, overly big collar as much as a tight one, but Supreme's new tees feel like I'm wearing it with a tie. the overall shape is nice though, and the cotton itself isn't as coarse as the norm. though personally i could go with something a touch softer still if it doesn't mean sacrificing weight.

Supreme is probably only alive (or at least successful), and certainly only able to open stores around the world (with bowls to skate, no less) because you have an army of (mainly) japanese kids willing to wait in line for hours in attempt to score a box logo tee. If Supreme was so gung-ho on skating and offended that 95% of their customers don't skate and only buy the gear, then maybe they should drop making clothes and concentrate on their decks, and/or putting out related hardware for them so they can better support skate culture. I don't buy the fact that Supreme (James) is so upset that the brand is more a culture brand than skate, when he lets his brand continue to perpetuate the cycle by rationing product, doing limited edition collaborations with other culture brands, and by focusing the brand on clothing most of the time. And what exactly makes one t-shirt a skate t-shirt, and another not a skate t-shirt when the graphics themselves typically focus on art, pop culture, or politics. Maybe I'm ignorant, but does Supreme even sponsor any skaters and if so, where are the pro model's and associated t-shirts for them? When going to skate parks, or reading skate magazines where is their presense? Why are there three stores in Japan, and only now one store in Southern California?

I'm not knocking Supreme, and in fact am a big fan of the brand. I've met with James a couple times and was impressed with how down to earth and level headed he was, as well as impressed with what his outlook. I just have a tough time understanding why theres a gripe about them no longer being recognized as a skate specific brand, when all their strides for the last few years have been in creating a culture brand.

guess it's a matter of taste, but I hate Supreme's cut. Especially the more recent stuff with the ultra-tight collar. regardless, your best bet is to search http://directory.google.com/Top/Business/Industries/Fashion/Manufacture/Clothing, http://dmoz.org, http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Business_to_Business and some other business to business sites. Considering your in asia should make it that much easier since so much apparel manufacturing is based out of there.

since you referenced japanese selvege specifically, and called out "construction, raw materials and dyestuffs", i'll continue to address my point within that context...

Gap's denim isn't too bad, particularly for a mass market brand, but it simply cannot hold a stick to denim being produced in limited supply for brands specializing in japanese selvedge. True premium denim in many instances is made from zimbabwe cotton, which is usually considered the best in the world. This cotton is refined into a thread that often has been hand dyed using organic vegetable pigments (true indigo). This is a relatively long and painstaking process usually done by hand, particularly when done following traditional methods such as using clay vats kept out doors. The number of times the cotton is dipped and what pigments used define the base color of the denim, and most the time involves multiple trips into the vat, often with substantial drying times between dips. This cotton is eventually used to create the selvedge denim, by being woven on machines often dating back to the 1940's or earlier to achieve the traditional selvege denim. Depending on how much coarsness (character) they're trying to achive in the fabric, they'll slow the machine down further, but due to the limits of the equipment and the desire for a relatively specific uniqueness achieved from a hands on process, the look (character) is sometimes specific even to the individual batch being made. These machines generally aren't (and usually can't) be run fast enough to make enough fabric for more than a niche brand. Further, the machines are getting increasingly rare since their re-built/overhauled vintage machines. By automating the process, you're cutting out alot of what defines the denim and what arguably gives it it's unique character. Further, changing the process severely affects the way the denim wears over time, particulalrly using synthetic dyes over natural ones. Part of what's so great about buying denim from a brand like 45rpm is how the color of the denim gets more texture and character over time, as pigments from the various ingredients bleed, run, and fade emphasizing imperfections from the crude methods used to weave the fabric, or the fact that no two are alike. Perhaps 45rpm isn't a fair example considering their price points are far higher than the gap, but it also applys to a brand like PRPS which is rumored to be made by the same manufacturer, or at least following the same traditional techniques and is within the price range you quoted. Granted some people look at the imperfections as mistakes, but others see them as a unique character in the denim, and will go through great legnths to pay large sums of money to get it. As nice as you might consider selvedge being made by the Gap, it just doesn't compare since it's a mass market brand requiring automated manufacturing to produce, most of which isn't in Japan or following the traditional methods of a Japanese selvedge.

American denim, and Italian denim have their own qualities and character. Whether they're better or not is a matter of taste so long as we're still talking about premium denim. Personally I really love American denim as well, but saying it's the same would be like saying a good Italian wine is no different than a good French wine. Regardless, for someone that truly appreciates the inherent imperfections of the traditional process of Japanese selvedge denim and understands the process required to achieve it, it sounds naive to lump Gap denim with the rest of Japanese selvege just because they found a way to bump thier quality a few notches over their house denim and follow just enough of the manufacturing process to be able to claim it's actually Japanese selvedge.

i disagree.

though that price range limits your options a bit on the japanese selvage, not all denim is created equally and gap's japanese denim isn't actually manufactured in japan, only the fabric on some of their showcase pieces does. They simply don't have the same technique and considerations as much of the denim that i've seen that's actually made in japan, and to some extent even the United States.

once you drop the price range, your talking a world of difference since gap simply isn't producing a high-end handmade japanese denim washed with organic dyes like many of the other top-tier denim houses.

dont think they sell online anywhere else. it's a pretty niche brand, and as said by others - very pricey. i don't even think after market sellers will touch it.

PRPS is the brainchild of Donwan, and backed by his main company - akademiks. thats why its got the little 'a' tag on the woven trims. He's a big fan of japanese selvedge, and this was his interpretation of a quality jean. They have no website, though one is supposedly in the works. With all the trouble they've had with the www.akadmiks.com website, don't expect to see one anytime soon.

You can find it also at a store called Jones in London, a few stores down from the Maharashi shop. At least they had it a few months ago when I was there. If you still can't find it call them at 212.563.4999 and ask.

i'm not really knocking nigo... personally I still like a good part of what I see from bape (just wish they'd make bigger shoe sizes). their screen print quality is pretty amazing actually, though I'm becoming less a fan of how well the t-shirts themselves wear (they seem to start out nice and soft and get kinda coarse with age). most the cut & sew stuff is top notch, though whether it's always worthy of the price points is another arguement probably not worth getting into. regardless, nigo generally has an attention to detail that's argueably unparalled, but this bbc stuff just doesn't feel the same at all. i kinda wonder if nigo feels the same since he always has a look of disdain in the press release photos in start contrast to Pharrell - kinda like he rather be somewhere else. then again, i'm not sure i've ever seen nigo crack a smile for that matter. the bape x pepsi collab was out of left field and felt cool (to me at least) when all was said in done, this mass market collab between reebok x bbc just seems lame before it even started. i know it's not exactly the same sort of comparison, but if you're going to start jumping into bed with other companies why start with one as fat and boring as reebok? perhaps it was strictly about dollars, but reebok feels more like a consolation prize than a win. or is bbc so arrogant to think that their so cool (before even shipping any product) that they can make anything else cool by simple association?

maybe I just like to hate, but that's just my opinion for whatever it's worth.

like i said before, they have a shop in soho, nyc.

just out of curiosity... what other forums are you referencing? just asking since I haven't come across many with these types of topics.

(that was directed to bape007, but if anyone else has any url's they can recommend, please do.)

Edited by misteraven on Sep 2, 2004 at 06:21 AM

saw the shoes and a logo shirt. personally I was disappointed. kinda figured I wouldn't like the shoes from what I saw in pictures, but they just looked femenin and fruity to me like something you'd see in a window on christopher street. shirt was basic to the point of being insulting, particularly when considered with the hundred dollar price tag. seemed like they scanned and streamlined some old clip art and then just screen printed it centered on a shirt.

I'm guessing it starts out as something new, maybe a twist on whats out at the time or a step up in creativity or quality. After that, I'm guessing it's some smart marketing/positioning and a lot of luck.

saw a bbc shirt at nom de geurre (sp?). $100 for a t-shirt featuring a one color print of their clip-art looking boost of a logo. I don't care of it's hand spun by virgin girls during leap years using cotton from an extinct variety of plant, it's not worth it that. More power to them if they can come out of nowhere and tax people that hard from jump street.

I've seen LRG from the start, even kind of know some of the people involved a bit, and can say objectively that they've always had the same aesthetic and direction. Very heavy branding, lots of trims, and a strong tendancy towards safari/nature themes. Whether or not ravers bought them years ago is kind of besides the point since if it happened, it wasn't part of any game plan. Plus half the ravers I see are wearing ecko and that's never been pigeon holed as a raver brand.

LRG seemed kind of a lift off 555Soul, but they flipped the theme from urban, to nature. However, they've been doing their thing long enough now that it'd be fair to say they have their own identity these days. Not sure about flip flopping demographics, since that's generally outside anyone's control. The goal is to make money - being cool takes a backseat to that.

Haven't looked to closely at Chip & Pepper. (The name kind of annoys in the same way Von Dutch always did). Regardless, I'd probably stay away from the buttery soft denim unless you're particularly careful with them or don't wear them often. I've seen Rogan's basically fall apart after a year of regular use. Not so much the seams and stitching as the denim fabric itself. Evisu to me seems to be a waste, especially after mainstream Hip Hop noticed it. For japanese selvedge, check out 45rpm (they have a store in soho next to Marc Jacobs). I've never seen a pair of jeans ooze compassion for the craft the way rpm's do.

Yes and no, it's all relative to a person's perspective, opinion, and knowledge of it.

But for starters, it's an unfair comparison to put a pair of LRG denim that is made in China from bulk chinese denim next to Rogan and Paper that are made in the USA of domestic or imported (usually either Italian or Japanese) denim. LRG's positioning would be at the top end of the Urban market which consists of other mediocre denim from China, Vietnam, or some other third world country. Ecko, Zoo York, Roca Wear, etc would be a closer comparison since they share similar price points and are also made from similar materials, processes.

However, whether a jean justifies a $180+ price tag because it's argueably more considered or made from a japanese selvege in small batches domestically, or whatever... is a matter of personal opinion for the most part.

Maybe this is old news, but after hearing hype for the last year or two, it looks like shit's official.

Anyone care to predict how well it'll do?

http://www.bookla.com/eventsfdr/2004/bbc/frame.html

'state your name' is on the verge of dropping. probably the most anticipated video since the re-release of style wars. keep an eye on scrap yard for a copy, or stay tuned to http://www.12ozprophet.com/forum

Supreme is worth a visit for the out of towner, even if you walk out empty handed which is usually the case. You wont have to wait in lines 98% of the time because they rarely have anything new. The only time you see lines is when the new delivery launches and the days after, or when there's a special release. That and some mornings when you catch a couple japanese kids waiting for the store to open.

Currently there is a sale going on, so you know there's nothing really worth picking up. Last time I stopped by they still had bags, which aren't bad if you'r in the market for one and don't mind paying a premium for it. Other than that, it's pretty much what all have said. The same neckface and malcolm x shirts. (though I suspect they're poor sellers, and thus lingering, and not being reprinted)

Union is also worth a visit, considering it's a pretty decent store and is most consistently stocked out of all the 'cool' shops. It's also only a short walk. Tons of t-shirts and a pretty fair selection of lines. Chances are you'll dig into your pockets for at least one of them. Regardless, few of these stores are more than 10 - 15 minute walk from each other, so it's probably worth going to all of them regardless of how good/bad people say they are.