cthip

We've just completed a 16 month tour of the 3sixteen+ 21bsp jeans! They have approx 12 months wear on them and have traveled all around North America. They should be heading back to Andrew over the next few days and hopefully we can show them to you all! I'm happy about it because often I see people put down the 18oz denim on the 11 and 21 BSP jeans as being "Boring" when they are truly far from. That is hands down my favorite fabric above 15oz and I'm grateful the project survived 16 months.

 

Cool, can't wait to see it!  Anybody who calls that denim "boring" just hasn't spent enough time with it yet. . . .

@cthip You have quite the 3sixteen lineup. Definitely curious to see how your Kibata's turn out!

 

Haha yea.  I keep telling myself I'm gonna branch out and try something different (I do have one pair of Stevensons), but you guys seem to keep releasing exactly the type of denim that I need exactly when I need it!

 

I'm excited about the Kibatas too, will post photos after the next wash.

Cthip, thanks for the info. Does the 21BSP stretch back to/past raw?

 

Not quite.  Here are my current measurements compared to measurements on selfedge.com:

 

Waist:  33"  (34" listed on selfedge.com)

Rise:  11"  (11" listed, rises don't shrink/stretch much)

Inseam:  35.75"  (39" listed)

Thigh:  11.75"  (11.6" listed)

Knee:  8.5"  (8.9" listed)

Hem:  7.5"  (7.9" listed)

 

 

In 2 months of wear, I haven't got them to stretch past the raw 

 

To Cthip, if you sized down on them, it definitely makes sense that you got them to stretch out. I don't think 3sixteen jeans are vanity sized and no reason to size down. Out of all the 316 jeans I owned, I realized I needed to size up 1 or 2 to get my desired fit. 

 

Yea when I bought them several years ago the trend was to buy them so tight that you could just barely button them, and they would stretch/relax as you wore them.  Since then I've gained a little weight (one size), usually buy unsanforized (one more size), and prefer a slightly looser fit (one more size) which accounts for the discrepancy between the size 31 on my ST-100x and the 34 on my kibatas.  The ST-100x has significantly stretched though:

 

Waist:  33" (32" on selfedge.com)

Thigh:  11.5" (vs 10.5")

Knee:  7.5" (vs 7.9")

Hem:  7.5" (vs 7.6")

Inseam:  34" (vs 37")

Rise:  10.5" (vs 10.6")

 

So, I definitely agree with you, tagged sizes are pretty accurate and there's no need to size down.  However if somebody is in a situation where their pair is just a little tight, it is possible to stretch these out as my measurements show.  No telling how long that might take or how (un)comfortable that might be though!

To anyone who has the 11/21bsp+, have you guys ever stretched these jeans out past or to their raw measurements? I've had 3 other pairs of 3sixteen jeans and on all of them I was able to get very little stretch on any of them. 

 

I got a ton of stretch out of my ST-100x.  They're a tagged size 31, when I usually wear a 33 or 34.  It doesn't look quite right, but I can still squeeze into them if I need to.

 

The +21BSP is much much LESS stretchy than the ST-100x.  it does stretch a little, but I'd guess less than other 3sixteen denims.

Cheers guys. I knew about the weight difference, aware that BSP are considered 3sixteens premium line but was wondering if the Kiabata came close or were just a unsanforised offering alongside there normal line. I've had ST100 previously and don't ask why but I love the extra stitching line that runs of the back pockets, wish it was on the BSP.

If the PBJ don't work out it'll be the 21BSP.

 

I have both the +21BSP and the kibata denim.  I also have retired a pair of the ST-100x.

 

The +21BSP is completely in a league of its own.  It's not just heavy, it's also a very dense weave and a very stiff denim.  It took many months for them to soften up and become comfortable.  It was totally worth it in the end, but these are jeans that would stay stiff enough to stand up on their own even after 5-6 machine washes.  They're also very slow to fade.  It's totally worth it, they're amazing jeans, but you have to be willing to invest some time breaking them in.  I also can't wear them in very hot/humid weather.  I did it one summer and it was miserable.  The fades I'm getting are similar to cmboland's link:  more of a gray/white "vintage" sort of fade.  Here's a link to my +21BSP from earlier this year http://supertalk.superfuture.com/index.php/topic/61213-3sixteen-jeans/page-66#entry3152965

 

I've had the kibata for about two months and am totally in love with them.  They're completely different from the 21BSP.  It's not just the lighter weight, it's also a more loose weave.  They softened up by maybe the 2nd or 3rd wear and are super comfortable already.  They're not showing a ton of fade yet, but what's starting to become visible is more of the "electric-blue" sort of fade that you see from The Flat Head.  It's too early to tell what they're actually going to end up looking like, but they're heading in that direction.  I think in another month or so I might have some wear worth posting.  Also, I'm getting some nice roping around the hem--that's the quickest that I've seen roping from any raw denim that I've owned to date.

 

I'd say that if you liked the ST-100, you'll love the kibata.  It's everything the ST-100 is, just better.  The +21BSP is a completely different animal.

I definitely am. The denim on the 21bsp is just amazing and a huge difference between the 17oz denim on the 130x. I would highly recommend anyone debating on getting the 130x to actually drop the extra cash and get the 18oz 21/11bsp jeans. You will not regret it.

 

Nice!  Not sure how you're managing to wear them in summertime though.  I did that one summer, never again. . . . 

So I recently got some 21bsp and sold my 130x and decided to take some comparison pics before I shipped out my 130x. 

21bsp 18oz vs. 130x 17oz 

 

Nice choice, I'm sure you'll be happy with the 21bsp!

the social justice nerd in me desperately wants this to be the Rosalind Franklin model.

 

Good point.

 

 

 

The science nerd in me desperately needs this patch.

I mean, c'mon guys.  Kibata has been released for a couple weeks now.  I know some of you have fit pics.  

 

Sorry, too busy wearing them!  Honestly though, at this point fit pics from me would be pretty similar to what's already on the Self Edge website, just lower-res and with a less attractive model.

 

They are awesome though.  I already knew I liked the ST cut, and the kibata denim is really nice.  Crazy easy to break-in and super comfortable after just a day or two.  I was expecting way worse based on my experience with the +21bsp (well worth it, but they took months to soften up).

 

Of note, YMMV but I didn't get much shrinkage out of mine after a hot soak.  Maybe half a size?  I haven't taken measurements or anything but they're fitting slightly looser than I had expected.  We'll see if they shrink up any more after the second wash.

As mentioned earlier, there are stain removers that use enzymes rather than surfactants to remove stains. OxyClean is another brand. I have no experience with them, but from tests I've read they do not have any ill effect on fabric.

 

I 100% agree with mpukas and others who said to wash your jeans thoroughly when they're dirty/smelly.  We just need to clarify the use of enzymes in OxiClean (and similar products, Biz is another popular one).

 

I'm not aware of any product that has fully replaced surfactants with enzymes.  To my knowledge, enzymes are only used as supplements and do not replace surfactants.  There are lots of reasons for this, to name a few:

 

- Enzymes are expensive, at least relative to surfactants

- Enzymes work in a narrow range of temperatures.  While the optimal temperature varies, the vast majority of them will work best in warm water, work slower or less efficiently in cold water, and may be completely inactive in hot water.

- Enzymes are relatively picky.  Lipases will only break down oily stains, proteases will only break down proteins in stains, amylases break down starches, etc.

 

As far as I know, the classic OxiClean doesn't include any enzymes.  However, there are now dozens of OxiClean formulations, and I guess some of them could include enzymes.  Keep in mind that OxiClean is primarily an oxidizing agent, and enzymes are inactivated when they're oxidized.

 

Oxidizing agents usually make things whiter and brighter.  Bleach (like Clorox) is an example of a relatively strong oxidizer.  OxiClean and washing soda are also oxidizers.  They do essentially the same thing as bleach, they're just much more mild.  Whether that's good for your jeans is a personal decision.  By whitening the weft, you might be able to develop more contrast in your fades.  However, if you specifically bought jeans with an unbleached, natural weft, then using something like OxiClean would seem a little counter-productive.

thanks, there were so many other great pairs, I'll be happy to place

 

You are far too modest, those are a seriously KILLER pair.  

On a sidenote - I've been doing a little experiment since january. As I wanted to get a glimpse how my Warehouse could look faded, I threw the cutoff hem of my WHxBiG 660 into the machine everytime I washed. After 20+ washes it's still surprisingly dark and did only develop a bit of roping. Shows, that Indigo loss is due to wear, not due to washing. I'll continue the Experiment and try to post a pic when I can.

 

That's a great experiment, would love to see side-by-side photos of the jeans and the machine-washed cuffs.

cthip, I love the flattened toe box on your 1000 mile boots.  I haven't seen that before, and to be honest, I don't find the box toe on them new very attractive...

 

Good to see you can squash it down over time to a flatter toe.

 

Haha thanks!  The toe box on these can look a little "bulbous" at times, but over the years mine have relaxed a lot.  At work there was a door that was a bit "sticky," and I was kicking it open 10+ times per day.  That certainly helped flatten the toe.

 

I know that Brian removes the celastic toe lining and re-lasts a lot of boots to have a flatter profile, so that's another option if you're looking for quicker results.

Machine wash cold, hang dry.  Dr. Bronner's  rose soap.  Contrary to a previous statement, it definitely gets the funk out when machine-washing, although it's possible it wouldn't when hand-washing.

I swear I spy a nokia fade in there

 

Haha!  You're right it sure looks like it in photos, but these aren't quite that old.

 

Most of the time I was rocking one of these:

 

Not lost, but I pulled these out of retirement to do some painting this weekend.

 

 

 

 

3sixteen ST-100x, my first "real" pair of raw denim (after a brief experiment with a cheapie pair from the GAP).  They're still in decent shape other than the knees.  I'd sized down fairly aggressively, and after about the third repair I realized they'd continue ripping just outside of the repaired area each time.   They've lost just about all of their structure by now and feel soft and floppy like sweatpants or jammies.

Here are some before/afters of my Wolverine 1Ks resoled by Brian the Bootmaker.  The boots have been through a lot and I think they're better now than they were new!

 

 

 

 

Just for comparisons there are two guys in BKK doing tailor made selvedge, obviously without the heritage of the big L but I've visited both and these guy's are serious about their products. Japanese and Cone denim choices.

http://www.viapiana.ca/

 

Yep, I had hesitated to bring this up since I didn't want to derail the thread.  There are affordable and high-quality options for custom denim.  There's a small viapiana thread here on sufu

 

http://supertalk.superfuture.com/index.php/topic/143518-viapiana-custom-jeans/

 

Myself and a few others have had positive experiences.  Ben doesn't do much promotion here, but seems to have a thriving business in BKK.  His website is relatively barebones, but his social media clearly demonstrate the passion for the craft and attention to detail that we all appreciate here.

 

That doesn't take anything away from the Levi's program.  There's definite value in multiple live fittings, being able to handle the denim in-person, and having a face-to-face discussion with the tailor.  There's also perceived value in the classic red tag, correct arcuates, etc.  How much all of that is worth is a personal decision.

21bsp or kibata.  Hmm...

 

 

totally different.

 

Eh, both are loomstate from Kuroki.  Whether warranted or not, comparisons are coming.

These turned out really good in both colors. Especially love the quality of the packaging.

 

I've found that they fit about a half size smaller than Chuck Taylors. 

 

Good point, I did go up a half size from my regular size in Chucks.  My regular size probably would have worked, but would be slightly snug.

^hoping mine show up today too! I never got a confirmation email/tracking #. Just a square receipt.

 

I live in NYC so I went straight to the source to pick them up!

Those PF Flyers are forcing me to choose between having food to eat this month or having some really nice new shoes.

 

We trust you'll make the right decision.

 

what length do you guys hem your inseam to? thinking of hemming it an inseam of 31inches. im around 5 feet 9

 

I'm 6'1" and don't hem any of my denim.  The 21bsp posted above has a 39" inseam (maybe closer to 36" or 37" after washing).  I get mild/moderate stacks as pictured, but nothing crazy.  My other jeans are in a similar range, 36"-37" inseams pre-soak, maybe a little shorter after.

Anyone here have any updates of their 21bsp?  I've seen Andrew's pair that they displayed at Self Edge but I haven't seen many other heavily faded pairs.

 

 

I saw a slightly faded pair sell on ebay and those pics alone make me want to buy them. I think that the 18oz denim is very underrated and because there are no pics of it. I am highly considering getting them as my next pair.

 

I don't usually post photos, but since you asked here are my 21bsp.  Over three years of frequent wear.  Lots of machine washes (cold water, Dr. Bronner's soap, hang dry).  These are slooooooooow to fade, but rewarding and tough as nails.  The heavyweight, loomstate denim is one of the great values out there if you're into longevity and have some patience.  They were rough, scratchy, and stiff for the fthe first year or so, and did the "stand up on their own" thing after several washes throughout that first year.  Fades didn't really become significant until perhaps the second year.  At that time, they looked pretty similar to evanl's, posted above--deep, inky, midnight blue with some high-contrast fades in some spots.  I'd like to think they're now about halfway through their useful lives.  I'll be thrilled if I get another three years out of them and they keep fading at the (admittedly slow) rate that they have been fading so far.  

 

Recent crotch repair at Self Edge (stitching gave up, not the denim), and replaced top button--too bad, I liked the original button and the replacement is pretty generic.  Not shown is a repair to one of the pocket bags.  I snagged it with my keys, and just used an iron-on patch I had laying around to fix it.  Worked pretty well.

 

Sorry for the photo quality.  I just have my phone, and it's -12F outside so natural light is not happening anytime soon.  Even so, color is fairly accurate in these shots, and you can make out the vertical falling in the first shot.