electrum

Me bitching? ha, ha that's a joke, I just posted a few questions and opinions about the high price of LVC then defended myself against the wave of personal attacks that followed. You and the power elite on this board obviously didn't approve and haven't shut up about it since. Now here you go again, can't you just drop it or do you enjoy it so much that you can;t stop? Why don't YOU save us from even more pain and misery by stopping your off topic ranting and consider moving on by starting your own thread? An appropriate title: The Elitist Whine, Discredit and Insult Everyone 24/7 Who Do Not Conform thread.

That's it from me I ain't brigin' any of this crap up again -- I'm sticking with talking about jeans from now on and I hope you and your kind will too. Thanks.

"If your jeans look cool, but you are not cool then you become a horrible contradiction."

no... the people here dont like assholes who try to make a thread about LVC into their own personal bitch-fest. if you dont like LVC, then dont buy it and shut up. others obliviously like it alot, even with the "problems" that you talk about.

maybe you should start a thread called "LVC is a shitty brand and we should all boycott it till they fix my concerns." i can assure you that 99% of the people in this thread will ignore it and youll be able to bitch all you want.

A couple of days ago I posted a new topic for discussion and a certain group of board regulars turned into an angry mob hell bent on silencing and discrediting me using whatever means necessary because they apparently did not like what I said about LVC jeans. My words were taken out of context, twisted then used against me, I was called a bitch, liar, martyr, blah, blah, blah and endured an endless series of ridiculous childish personal attacks all for simply posting my honest opinion about LVC without offending anyone. in any way. It's not just me, there was a dude here recently who posted about his dad getting employee discounts for LVC jeans and he was put down and pretty much called a liar by the same goons, there have been others too who've been run off this board for no reason many times. It's pretty obvious this thread is slanted. Yep, look out, if you don't march in lock-step to the sufu LVC party line as dictated by certain board members they will do whatever it takes to suppress your thoughts and exclude you from further participation.

This board embraces censorship, conformity and ostracizes people who present ideas/opinions that go against the norm dictated by a few self serving members all of which is un-American and twisted bs. Those few members present themselves as friendly laid back cool non conformists in the spirit of freedom and sharing, when actually they're elitist fakes with inflated ego's with their own personal agenda. They welcome everyone with open arms who follow there lead, but as soon as you deviate from their dictated lead they will stab you in the back in a second. Some are more subtle than others in their tactics but their goal is always the same -- control. If you're looking for diversity of thoughts, free speech and civil discussions with a nice group of people who are open to sharing like-minded info in a fair/reasonable setting that is open to everyone regardless of how they like or dislike LVC you sure as hell won't find it here. Yeah a real piece of work this board is, its motto should be: Conform or be Cast out!

I can't understand why you and others here repeatedly say that I'm "bitter" and are always telling me to shut up over and over.? Are you and your followers the board's self designated Gestapo? Hell I'm just here to post my thoughts and experiences about LVC jeans just like anyone else. I do get a bit turned off with people like you who with what seems like the emotional intelligence of a 12-year-old whining and insulting anyone who doesn't think they way you tell them to think. Insult me and I'll dish it right back ten fold was my MO but no more, I'm tired of lowering myself to your petty level.

However, I do agree that you're exactly right, you should get what you pay for. Now you tell me, if you pay $220 for a pair of jeans that's made with denim that cost Levi's $3-$4 per yrd., with synthetic thread along with made in Cina thin leather patches, rivets, tin capped shank buttons painted with fake bronce glitter paint are you getting what you pay for? It doesn't tak an Masters in economics to see that LVC jeans are not worth the price. Since you just had to ask I answered again, now you can tell me to shut up, throw another temper tantrum full of insults and ask me again.

Damn, has it been a month ALREADY? Like a goddamned clock-work electrum I actually have to give you props.

Listen dude, LVC isn't a museum visit where you get in for the price of cheap admission and a bunch of denim heads go ape shit at how 100% accurate the curators have recreated an exhibit. It's a got dam business. As such, they're in it to win it and make profit. Now I'm not a business major, but something tells me that, if I'm paying less than what they are priced at by a significant amount (sounds like thats what you want, right?), I might be shopping at walmart.

Why are you so bitter about a company trying to make profit? Do you expect LVC to start pricing their jeans in the same range as their Levi's Strauss Signature line? Just let it go buddy. Notch one in the loss column and maybe start making your own repros, theres no chance you'll fvck it up then right? You'll get every detail down and price it so you won't make any profit. Now I know my rant + everyone else's pleading for you to just STFU will fall on deaf ears but seriously

Hey, no need to thank me! Glad to know all that info is appreciated by gracious, open-minded people.

I've thanked you numerous times for many things, what else do you want a medal? Now back on topic, if you will answer my questions: if the denim is designed/developed exclusively for LVC for each model era like you say why then is the denim different on two of the four pairs of '47s I've had and why is my 2010 201 denim different from earlier runs?

Thank you.

I know you've talked a lot (maybe too much) about rubbing shoulders with big time industry insiders about the proprietary development of LVC denim, but I never have seen you post any official sources from LS&CO or anyone else confirming any of your assertions other than the 1915 Cone collaboration. I think you guys get a little carried away over way too many cold ones during your late night denim bull sessions at the local pub to the point you get duped into believing everything they tell you. That fantastic story about the abandoned ancient loom discovered (by denim loom archeologists no doubt?) in a field in Russia that was painstakingly refurbished, shipped to Switzerland then used to manufacture small batches of extrordinary denim exclusively for the 333 is absolutely ridiculous -- you guys must've been really buzzed that night.

You can brag about talking shop with the big shots as much as you want, but us little people like myself have nothing to go by other than the actual LVC jeans that we pay are hard earned money for and those jeans don't reflect what you describe most of the time. If the denim is designed/developed exclusively for LVC for each model era like you say why then is the denim different on two of the four pairs of '47s I've had and why is my 2010 201 denim different from earlier runs?

electrum, I've detailed how the 201 fabric was developed, by Stefano Aldighieri working with Kurabo, how the 333 fabric was developed using a Russian loom and extra short-staple cotton, how Cone replicated the new spinning method for the 67 jeans so that the denim on those is slubbier, the differences in weave and names of the 47 vs 55 fabric, and the development of the 1915, with quotes from cone. Oh yeah, and you've had plenty of information about the development of the duck on the new range. Personally, I think it's all a reasonable person would need. I'm happy to update more for the good people who are interested, although I suspect you'll continue to ignore it.

Yeah I read cottonduck's deal, but his cost estimates are all speculation based on me having my own vintage jeans tailor made which is something I haven't even started on. He's not comparing aples to apples, i.e. LS&CO enormous buying power and leverage.

I don't really know if LVC is the cheapest out there. From others I've experienced , Sugar Cane, Post O'alls and Buzz Rickson they're all over priced and not worth the high premium either considering the low cost of the materials. Isn't that what I've been saying? Anyway I'm still a Levi's man and they do have the coolest designs plus they're real babe magnets.

Who says LVC is 'recreating denim from specific eras'? I've never heard from any official sources or seen any documentation from LS&CO proving that worn out assertion.

I know that everyone here understands that LVC has issues and that it is a beaten dead horse. However, the issues that I have presented are oddly enough never discussed.

Did you completely ignore cotton duck's very informed very time consuming post?

Isn't lvc the cheapest option for repro denim? And the only company that even bothers to recreate denim from specific eras?

Get over it and buy something from sugar cane or warehouse.

Everyone here understands that lvc has issues and all that. You're just beating a dead horse.

electrum is a bitch

What brought that on you pissant calling ME a bitch? That's too funny, I mean aren't you that creepy girlie guy who likes to post pictures of yourself dressed up like a biker?? Forgive me if I have you confused with someone else, BITCH.

I've responded to electrum's point so many times in the past that I'm done, now, ....

....Really, if you don't like LVC, don't buy it! I love it because it's unique....

Paul there's no doubt that you have and continue to contribute a wealth of knowledge regarding denim and its history to this board. You've saved my ass a number of times on Thai fakes, LVC screw ups and sizing issues and i appreciate all of that. Therefore I'm a bit confused why you try to discredit my view that LVC jeans are not worth anywhere near the price and that for the same price LS&CO can produce a true vintage repro, but will not because they're making a huge profit selling something that is second best. I've provided indisputable facts with sources backing up my claims, whereas you and others here have simply said I'm wrong without backing your assertions up with anything but personal opinions. I think that you're doing this board a disservice by not considering the issues I've presented, thereby leaving newbies vulnarable to losing a lot of money like I as well as others have. I thought that you of all people would at least consider some of the issues that I've pointed out.

Okay roy6, I understand that LVC has some great stuff out there that I haven't seen and there's no doubt that most LVC selvage denim is high quality. However, you're not saying anything new that provides any proof that my bad costly experiences with LVC jeans are as you said, "not true". Yeah I'm sure the leather on your jacket is top rate, but everything you posted is subjective and does not say anything about what exactly makes these garments worth the high price. High quality leather jackets are over 50% chepaer than they were twenty+ yrs ago because labor is cheaper, distribution chains are more efficient and cost less, materials are more common and cheaper in a more competitive globalized market and that holds true for quality selvage denim and other "high end" clothing materials. That's what I'm getting at, vintage brands are utilizing the advantages of a very efficient and competitive globalized market place to produce garments at a very low cost, marketing them as something special then marking them up 100-200%. You say that is not true, but you cannot offer any evidence other than that you think it's great stuff that's worth the high price. You should do your home work before you try to prove that someone is a liar otherwise you'll look foolish again.

BTW, I do not have fantasies about beating you. I was figuratively saying someone needs to kick your ass until you learn that this board is not all about you or any one person -- it's about everyone. When you go around calling people liars, broken records and martyrs because you disagree with what they say then that kinda makes you appear like you think you're the only person here which ain't too cool.

The LVC Rough 'n' Ready leather jacket from 2003. The top pics are the LVC repro, the bottom are of an original Levis leather jacket that is a an extremely similar (if not the same) model that sold on the Bay last year. You can see the excellent job they did of reconstructing it.

The LVC version was manufactured by Aero in Scotland, a well-thought of company. Their jackets are pricey, a comparable Aero jacket, like the Bootlegger, would have sold for around $800 in 2003 (? ask Dr_Heech). This jacket is also heavily distressed and has nice fine details like a loosened and restitched shoulder seem and a repaired patch on the lower left front. Distressing a jacket is a lot of additional work- if you had ordered one exactly like this from Aero it probably would have been well over $1000. The LVC version was $795 at most places, I think.

The quality is extremely high. It's made with horsehide in an oil pull finish, the flannel lining is immaculate and sturdily stitched. It's a real pleasure to wear, and I fully expect it to last me the rest of my life.

Shortylong also has this jacket I think, or did. He can tell you what he thinks of it.

Just one example.

See also:

PaulT's duck jumper from last season- he posted numerous pictures of it new and after some washes, showing the way it's breaking in, (very nicely) as well as a comparison with an original jumper.

Eltopos 1873 jeans- lots of pictures here and in the Mr.Freedom thread. There are lots of pictures of the original of this jean. An excellent, very convincing repro.

Crownzip's friend's '33s, which have been worn to hell and back and are still holding together and looking amazing, posted about two weeks ago here.

Take the time to look back through this thread and you will find tons of beautiful pieces that are wearing in very well, not falling apart like subpar merchandise would.

I won't debate about pricing. High end clothing costs what it costs, mostly reflecting the design process and name of the manufacturer as well as distribution costs. Might as well spit in the wind.

Regarding your fantasies about me being beaten, you might want to compare notes with almostnice. I think he has those too.

Easily my favorite thread right now! Roy, you up? Gotta hear the response... Oh and Electrum, is this for real?!?

Maybe a bit over the top, but just to prove I'm not such a hot head all of the time, I jumped on the bandwagon and gave roy6 all of my reps.

I dunno Erk, they're selvage and they're 201's, my USA made 201s don't look any better than those imports. So you're saying that made in the USA justifies a $170 premium? I don't think so, hell, I'd bet that made in Mexico might even be better. You say probably made with really crappy denim, well, you haven't experienced the Houdini denim on my LVC 201s, it is really crappy denim no probably about it.

Looks like they got a 201XX for 2010 - inspired by... 201XX of the olden days...

Maybe electrum can pick it up.

http://us.levi.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4086257&kwCatId=&kw=levi+vintage&origkw=LEVI+VINTAGE&sr=1

Oops... Looks like someone already posted it in the STF... Thread... Weird no one mentioned the Tobacco STF that's new....

http://us.levi.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4064004&kwCatId=&kw=tobacco+shrink&origkw=TOBACCO+Shrink&sr=1

Very interesting, those are the same 201's that I paid $220 for. The only differnce is that they don't have a patch, have double needle stitch arc and added the red tab, oh the buckle appears much nicer than mine and i bet they shrink-to-fit ...mine didn't. They probably cost Levi's around $15-$20 to manufacture for them to be asking $50 retail. I guess I had to pay an extra $170 for the patch and single needle embellishments that came with my LVC pair. Great reference post Dom, it is definitive proof that LVC jeans should be fairly priced at around $50 retail. Thanks.

....you are making yourself sort of unpopular with your long, repetitious rants about LVC.............................

I feel like you're taking it too far painting all of their products as over-priced, historically inaccurate, and shoddy. I know from my own experience that this just simply is not true.

"Rants"? Like I said to Airfrog, I was just suggesting a new topic for discussion, if you want to call that a rant then that's your problem. The only time I rant is when either some jerk continuously throws unwarranted cheap shots my way or when I get screwed out of several hundred dollars by one of LVC's products.

"Repetitious"? Well, there's nothing more repetitious than reading the same posts about sizing, shrinkage and fading, but that doesn't bother me, I think people have the right to talk about whatever they want as often as they want.

As far as you thinking that I'm "taking it to far" about over pricing, inaccuracy and shoddy quality, from my personal experience I know that I'm being truthful and accurate. I'd like to to repeat my experiences again to back myself up, but I don't want to offend anyone by being repetitious. Let's try this instead, you tell me about your "personal experience" that proves why you think that my personal experience with over pricing, inaccuracy and shoddy quality is is as you said, "not true"?

. . . .

Look roy6 I'm tired of your subtle pussy jibes you've been tossing my way everytime I post. You want to talk trash then talk trash to my face punk. Who the fuck are you anyway? I mean you show up here outta nowhere about 9 mo's ago acting like you're the grand poobah of the vintage fashion world with your creepy b/w pose pics in your $2000 three piece shit "vintage" wardrobe, some tub shots of '33s, old cowboy pics and a bunch of pretty boy glamour shots of yourself in "cool" urban settings. In other words you haven't contributed shit to this thread Then you go bumpin yer gums at anyone you think don't fit your lame idea of cool. A pack of hoods need to roll you up in a filthy piece of carpet and kick yer poke ass raw til you finally realize that you ain't all that!

....Whats the point of your post? ....I don't know what your beef is? I

I don't have any beef and I'm not trying to make any kind of point Airfrog. I'm just offering up an interesting topic for new discussion. After all, this is the LVC thread and I happen to think that more attention and research needs to be focused on the details surrounding LVC vintage replicas that we're paying so much money for. Sure would be a helluva lot more interesting than talking about sizing and fading day in and day out. Hell you can do that with a pair of $30 501s.

This board is a virtual encyclopedia full of detailed technical info about history, model cuts, fit, fading and shrinkage, yet no one seems to know anything about how LVC vintage reproductions are made and whenever the subject is brought up everyone is mum as if it's a taboo subject. I challenge anyone here to explain how LVC s are made and what exactly makes them worth 200-300$? Tell us what materials are used (type of cotton, metal alloys, dye, etc..), where those materials come from (manufacturer sources) how those materials are made and where the jeans are manufactured using verifiable documented LS&CO sources rather than unsubstantiated opinions and/or hearsay???

Not one pair of LVC jeans I've encountered tells me any of these important details that I'm paying a high price for. It's like LVC is selling high quality diamonds without listing clarity, weight, origin or authenticity, they simply attach a huge price tag on it and if you buy one and it breaks or it's flawed, well too bad it's your loss, they're not liable cuz they didn't disclose anything about the stone.

With LVC prices rumored to be going up, is the new and improved XX Netherlands LVC Group or whatever going to finally create real vintage reproduction Levi's classics or are consumers going to continue paying top dollar for jeans with denim, buttons, buckles, thread and patches that look like some plastic shit found at the bottom of a Cracker Jacks box?

Does he have a flat-bed chainstitch machine and 43200G for the hems? If he doesn't have the double needle machine, that's fine, it will add a more agricultural touch.

If so, and it goes well, please give us his details!

No chainstitch machine and I'm not sure about the single needle or double needle stitching bit, the guy is Asian who doesn't speak very good English so it's hard for me to convey these details to him -- I just point and he says yes, yes. He might end up doing a real hack job I just don't know since I've never used his services before. Anyway it's going to take a while for me to get the denim cuz I'm trying to shoot for some deadstock denim that's shows up on ebay every now and then. 3.5 yrds of '40s deadstock redline sold recently but I passed because the dude didn't know the weight. But yeah, once I have them made I'll post pics...just wondering if I'll get busted by LS&Co for trademark infringement using a copy of their patch, arcs and logos?

You gotta be kidding right? Are you blowing your tailor to get that kind of deal? With all these connections, if I was you, I would have been in the jeans manufacturing business a long time ago.

No.

Don't take my word for it though, look for yourself. Anyone can put together a pair of quality vintage jeans. The materials are easy to find, readily available from numerous sources and are very inexpensive. If you have the material and a pattern any tailor will sew it together for a reasonable price. Having a pattern is the key and my tailor will disassemble my dish towel LVC 201s and use that as his pattern. Otherwise he would have to measure and cut a pattern to my specs which is where much higher costs would have to be factored in. Like I said look for yourself, having a vintage repro made using quality material ain't all that dificult.

who wants a size 36 55 501? just soaked mine and fucking still is too big! lemme know just tried on after soaking thats it pm me

Hey no problem, just boil them for a few days in a caldron of extremely hot water. If that doesn't work, hell, just sell them for a 80% loss then dish out another $200-$300 on a different model. Try the '47. My understanding from industry insiders is that LVC got the '47 right for this season so you shoudn't have any problems with them cuz there the real deal this time.. If the '47 has problems you can sell them at a loss too then try another model for $200-$300, there's so many to choose from you'll eventually find at least one that works out, just keep tryin' but you better hurry cuz prices are going up soon. Dude I don't see why you're making such a big deal about the whole thing, it's just a lot of money and blue jeans we're talkin' about here so just chill.

After getting totally hosed with the s/s2010 201, I looked into what it will cost to have a tailor custom make a pair of 201s using my worthless LVC 201s as a pattern. The raw selvage denim will cost me anywhere from $3 to $10 per yard based on weight and prices I've seen on ebay and web. I'll have a number of weights to choose from in raw vintage shuttle loom redline, white or blueline selvage material from Cone Mills, Chinese and Japanese manufacturers (my choice) or hold out for original deadstock (real vintage) raw denim for pennies on the dollar that shows up on ebay from time to time. I can get the low quality tin buttons and pressed metal bucles like LVC uses for pennies per dozen from countless sources on the web, but will instead have a friend who's a tool and die expert make authentic (complete w/ Levi's logo) steel, iron, brass or copper (my choice) grommet donut buttons (with baked enamel paint finish), rivets and buckle at no cost. I'll either reuse the linen patch from my LVC 201s or have a buddy of mine easily draw up and silkscreen one with full detail using archive web fotos of original 201 patch as guide/template, as he tells me, at his print shop at no cost. My tailor says he will use the best linen thread (my choice of any colour combo) and piece it all together for $30. So for around $40 to $60 (depending on how much the denim ends up costing) I'll have an authentic pair of "vintage Levi's" made with the finest materials and craftsmanship for around $200 LESS than what a pair of low quality watered down LVC vintage knockoffs will cost me.

With $100 knit t-shirts, $200-$350 jeans and $200+ shirts, well, if LVC products were true vintage reproductions then yeah they'd be worth the high premium. However, when you get a pair of vintage repro jeans and find cheap tin capped grommet buttons with fake copper glitter paint that comes off after the first wash, poly core thread, stamped metal cinch buckles that don't work, unknown denim weight, denim that varies for the same model from one purchase to the nxt, rivets that pop off, leather patches that shrivel like a prune after one soak and numerous other quality problems then you have to ask yourself if they are worth the high price. I and others here have brought up these problems and they're usually written off as simple mistakes that LVC is working on fixing. I think that's total bs. Let's face it, LS&Co. has no intention of ever producing an exact replica vintage jean (which is not difficult to do) because if they did they'd cut into their profit margin. Levi's is producing the lowest possible cost product and selling it for the highest possible price. It makes good business sense, why charge $200-$350 for a higher cost/quality authentic repro when they can easily get by with charging the same price for a much lower cost/quality knock-off knowing that consumers will still buy it anyway? That's the way it is with all "vintage" repro clothing, some say that made in Japan is better, but they;re even worse than LVC at sticking it to their customers with over priced low quality products.

What's the general opinion on the changes to LVC at this point? Does it seem like anythings really changed from a customer's perspective?

You know what I think. However my view is based on my experience with the s/s2010 201...the one with the Houdini denim that instead of shrink-to-fit expanded by one inch subsequently losing a couple oz.'s in weight, plus losing most of its colour and the paint coming off the buttons all after a few washes w/out even wearing them. It's the worst pair of LVC I've had and I've had a few real bad ones. If this is what the new "XX Group" is pushing off as new and improved then it's a big step backwards for the brand. I;ve never been so pissed off...there's nothing worse than being so flagrantly robbed of $220 -- I consider it criminal fraud.

.....I never got that in the 80's and I guess I don't get it now.

.....I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't get it. It's like that mister freedom pickup truck with the painted on "rust" areas....

what does everyone else think?

It's just another addition to the current highly profitable vintage knockoff trend to gain market share. Shred a pair cheap denim, market as a 'vintage work of art that cowboy's used to wear' and put a $500 price tag on it. Some 18-22yr-old kid will buy a pair with his college tuition money from daddy thinking that he's cool because it cost a lot of money and makes him feel like the rustic model pictured in the promo material. Like you said, just like the stuff in the eighties and it too will soon pass like it did in the eithies. jmho....

listen dude, we heard you the first 50 times. And the only one who got defensive was you. I do agree with you that this is a forum and your concerns and gripes were valid - the FIRST time. After a minute, it becomes like a joke, beating a dead horse.. Sucks that you've had some not so pleasant experiences but I guess thats the nature of the game. I'm pretty sure cowboys didn't give two shits about their 201s stretching an inch. They most likely just stfu and wore them to death. I'm done. My apologies to you electrum for being that guy.

I've been on this board for about 3yrs, during that time at least 90% of the posts I've read are about sizing. I don't care about sizing, but I know that some people might benefit from discussing that topic so I'm not going to jump down their throats telling them that they're a "joke" , to "stop beating a dead horse" or that they need to move on. The way I see it dude, everyone here has the right to talk about whatever they want as often as they want as long as they stay on topic and they don't insult someone. On the other hand, no one has the right to arbitrarily set limits or decide when or what can or cannot be discussed here if the subject is relevant to LVC. Now that everyone knows where we're both coming from let's both stop beating this dead horse and move on with talking about LVC. Cool?