jdavis

I did my best to seach but I couldn't find much about it - I do apologize if it's been addressed....

I was having a conversation just yesterday about old Lees and cone JELT denim - I'd love to know more about the weave and the dying of jelt denim - all I really know now is that it was sanforized, and I have a feeling it might have been a RHT - despite the LHT tendency of Lee - other than that I have no idea ... but I'd really like to know more if someone can help!

thanks!

- J

They're non selvedge - but at least that keeps the price down... which is always good.. Its a fun one ...

I've worn a pair of these for about a month and I posted some pics ... I'm pretty attached to them now...

www.imprint.shutterfly.com

They're pretty great, and I wouldn't say that the dye rubs off much more than other raw jean I've had. I even like the steel rivets and the stitching.

All in all - a pretty great 28 days!

thanks Supawiwi - whats your store called? Sounds like a great location...

21 rue Vieille du Temple

75004 Paris

Métro Saint Paul

What's the name/address of your store Supawiwi - I'd love to send a friend of mine to check it out!

Here is the pic of our small LVC store in Paris. Like I said, the entire announced LVC range is present but they also carry some of the Levi's Red collection, and the orange tab which seems to be part of the LVC. Not much interesting, but they seem to have a fair amount of pieces in stock contrary to the other Levi's stores we have.

Here's a link to a pair of NF vintage blues that I had on yesterday. I'm pretty happy with mine - I think they're a pretty great all-round jean. And I like the stiffness and the texture of the denim.

http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?p=941257#post941257

- J

*** ‘The southern African country is in the grips of a deepening recession marked

by the world's highest inflation rate of 1,281 percent … ’

-- http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/feb7_2007.html

Since Zimbabwe cotton is certainly not the be all and end all – then why would the Japanese heritage denim brands choose the Zimbabwe cotton variety over Egyptian-grown, American Pima or even cotton from other parts of Africa?

I’ve heard rumors too that members of the big three – Levi’s, Lee, Wrangler – made use of Zimbabwe cotton at some point in their heyday, but there has to more too it than that. To me this suggests a business decision of some kind – the pursuit of profit is usually a good place to start.

Good cotton - perhaps even very good cotton, available at prices that make choosing it over others easy. Why ferry containers of Pima across the Pacific to Japan when Zimbabwe cotton is less expensive? Zimbabwe cotton farmers are paid less comparatively than other cotton farmers, they’re paid in Zimbabwe dollars which as mentioned before are free falling in value, and of course it all takes place under the watchful eye of the dictator, in a regime with non-resistant human rights and prolific disease. This to me would make Zimbabwe cotton more of the cheap alternative than ‘the best cotton to be found anywhere in the world’.

I’m glad there’s more people interested in questioning where our denims come from. Reading though this thread again and seeing all of this, andrewisalorad in particular, I feel pretty sad. As far of threads go this definitely isn’t one of the happiest ones. I might be a bit of a hypocrite myself – a victim of western civilization – more possessions than I’ll ever really need – but I’m certainly not above the guilt and remorse for a country and a people that’s being consumed.

The trouble with denims I’ve found is that – unlike fabric origin - the origin of the raw materials is considerably harder to find. Some make the Zimbabwe origin plain to see – but most don’t …

I’d love to hear from anyone who has some knowledge they’d like to share...

It’s still a very important issue I think, and I'm glad other people like the thread too!

Alterion – I think a fair trade denim is a great idea!

I'm a big fan of 13mwz too - I know we've talked about it before Jim, but its great to hear from other people that appreciate what wrangler has done. I like the rivets, I love the change pocket, and the fit is good too. A great 501 alternative - as much as I love my Levi's, I love my 13s for variety.

Its a WIN - a low-rise slim-straight. The wash I believe is 'northern cotton' -- something I can confirm in a few days if you're still interested. And I think they're great too!

All pre-68 501s had two-tone stitching on the back pockets and cuffs if that helps. I'm reasonably sure your Levi is a 1967 501s.

Edited by jdavis on Feb 13, 2006 at 07:57 PM

I have a pair of Fulton-50 Line dry. The same denim (6-8 dip cone black-line selvage) is used in both Fulton 50 and 58 (Patriot). After having worn mine since their release, they've worn in beautifully, softened lots and I love them.

They're slim - a 17(knee)-17(ankle) or 16-16 depending on your size, but I wouldn't call them narrow.

Enjoy them - I'm sure you'll really like them!

Edited by jdavis on Feb 1, 2006 at 10:01 PM

When I saw a picture of the 201 it looked the same way - they had just used a later 501 for shape and used the Iron Ore finish. Still surprised they're posting it online though. The sample that I saw had the crotch rivet with matching buckleback, and suspender buttons - and everything else you'd expect to see.

That is strange. Assuming we're looking in the right place, the '47 deadstock picture is actually the LVC Vault Piece 'Iron Ore'... the 201.

Hopefully they'll figure it out soon - i'd check back in a few days.

Edited by jdavis on Jan 31, 2006 at 07:03 AM

hmm... I'm almost certain that they were stamped on BOTH sides. And during WWII 501xx the rivets were steel instead of copper - because of metal rationing of some kind.

Hope this helps!

If they're made within NAFTA than duties are substantially less - even zero in some cases.

Some manufacturers have yearly production quotas that are eliglible for a lower tax rate that varies with the material used.

And as for finishing product in USA making the tees qualify for a 'Made in USA' tag - I have a feeling not, but if I find out otherwise I'll post.

Jay,

In general - for importing into Canada - duties for materials manufactured outside of the NAFTA zone are a bit below 18%.

I'll see if I can get you a more definitive answer. Currently, what percent duties do you pay to land your materials, and what is the country of origin?

Edited by jdavis on Jan 26, 2006 at 09:13 PM

Assuming STF, the different white serging on the outseam would put the jean somewhere in the mid to late eighties.

After the redline was abolished circa 83, the selvage was serged with the same gold thread to match the chainstitch. Around a year later the gold thread was replaced with white.

Most STF of this kind were produced 83-86.

A picture of the leather-like patch would help - do you have one? I'd guess that you have a mid eighties 501, but there's no real telling without seeing some tags.

Edited by jdavis on Jan 15, 2006 at 09:36 PM

What I meant to say was that the crosshatch 'square' effect results from the alternating of BOTH warp AND weft yarns sizes by the SAME sequence, creating highs and lows at fixed intervals.

On the the pictured Old Navy jeans the effect would be less pronounced as a lower grade of yarns would be used. But naturally, the better the materials the better the effect would look -like using ringring instead of open-end yarns.

Edited by jdavis on Jan 11, 2006 at 09:43 AM

Alternating warp/weft yarn sizing in a repeating sequence makes the 'squares' you refer to.

Just as alternating only warp yarn sizing while keeping the weft constant would give the appearance of vertical lines - using ringspun yarns of course, since they have considerably more twist and texture than the cheaper open-end variety. Also known as 'cross-hatch' denim.

Still, denim doesn't have to be cross-hatch to be 'premium' at all. Even the word 'premium' isn't being used as much anymore now. The prps that i'm bumming around in on my day off aren't crosshatch denim at all, but their denim is without question more than fair [although on a personal note i have lots of other criticisms on it], as would be any LVC denim that has been produced to date.

And as always, better materials lead to a better finished product, which is important to remember with any 'premium' piece. So would Seven use better dyes and yarns than Old Navy - yeah they really would. And would Earnest Sewn whiskering look better than those on an H&M jean - pretty much.

Premium Look = Premium Materials & Finishing

As well, premium finishing includes the inside of the garment as well. If you turned inside-out the same pair of Old Navy jeans from above, they'd be considerably less well-finished when compared with the ladies Earnest Sewns.

Edited by jdavis on Jan 10, 2006 at 12:15 PM

Edited by jdavis on Jan 10, 2006 at 12:22 PM

When I saw the 201 sample it had double-stitched arcuates and red tab - possibly a deadstock 55 that they'd finished. As long as they use the correct body for the finished product.

Black has no fade whatsoever. Vintage black does. Unless you plan on trying to fade them out yourself, try the vintage black 501s!

INDIGO – named after a genus of dye-bearing plants, the most popular being the indigofera species. A dye in use since ancient times, modern confusion of indigo-bearing plants exists because of the plant classification system of Carl Linnaeus – the ‘father’ of taxonomy from the 1700s. First synthesized in 1880 by Adolf Von Baeyer and later adapted for commercial manufacturing by 1897. Baeyer was awarded the nobel prize in 1905. Around ten years later, by the time Levis switched to Cone from Amoskeag, most jeans were dyed with the synthetic.

Quote:

Maybe it's not that long... I think in cotton it all comes to fiber length.

jdavis, you're saying that Zimbabwean cotton is being explored and not well paid for?

--- Original message by Geowu on Dec 21, 2005 11:26 PM

Geowu, I was referring to an apparent deficit:

Z$25/kg to breakeven, but most puchases by Cottco and Cargill and presumambly anyone else involved in exporting cotton out of Zimbabwe fell between Z$22-23/kg. And at the time of that PAN UK report, most cotton farmers accepted less money for their cotton as they didn’t really have a choice.

I did want to say though that I agree with your posts about giving jobs to the poor and starving. In fact, since cotton was and I believe still is Zimbabwe’s chief export, than its probably the best job to have.

But that said, - and I agree with you Sybaritical – it IS a complicated issue – AIDS epidemic, a relentless dictator, almost non-existent human rights – an issue I’m sure will take generations to disappear. And of course the trade agreements and so forth that you mentioned. Zimbabwe cotton might indeed be of high quality, and the industry certainly gives some means of a job to people that otherwise might starve, but there’s much more than just that. I hope for everyones sake that the Zimbabwe cotton trade doesn't develop on the same lines as conflict diamonds in Angola and Sierra Leone...

I’ve about had it with the ‘we use the best cotton in the world’ line that everyone is using. Cotton so good that they can’t tell us anything about it. I think so too Denim R – it IS rubbish.

I think denim manufactures that use Zimbabwe cotton should have an obligation to promote safe and sustainable farming in Zimbabwe, and of course ensuring that their dollars make it to the farmers that need it most. Otherwise, it seems like they’re just preying on poor people with nothing to loose.

Edited by jdavis on Dec 22, 2005 at 08:57 AM

I just felt that Zimbabwe cotton should be de-mystified, as recently its been used without being really being substantiated. There’s a perception that Zimbabwe cotton comes from the beautiful Zimbabwe plains, where under the warming light of the African sun, farmers lovingly craft the best quality cotton in the world, using only the most traditional means.

Here are a few points from a 2002 Zimbabwe Cotton report for PAN UK’s Pesticides and Poverty project:

SZ 9314, FQ 902 and BC 853 were the most popular engineered species of cotton seeds used at the time.

“Of all crops grown in the country, the cotton sub-sector is the single, largest consumer of agricultural chemicals [, including Carbaryl, Thiodan/Thionex, Fenkil/Fenvaleate, Rogor/Dimethoate, Oncol].â€

It’s an estimate that at the time of the report that the breakeven point for a Zimbabwe cotton farmer was Z$25/kg (less than 1 USD). However most offerings fell between Z$22-23/kg. Farmers continue to farm cotton because what else are they to do?

There was also a small segment on suicide using pesticides.

http://www.pan-uk.org/Cotton/Zimbabwe.pdf

The report does talk about the growing organic cotton sector, which is certainly a good step, but it is still a small part of Zimbabwe’s overall cotton production.

Granted this report is several yeas old [and of course assuming that it is indeed true] , but considering that Zimbabwe is in much the same place now as it was then, could the lives of cotton farmers have improved all that much? In 2002 Mugabe rigged the election so he could stay in power. A year later opposition groups stages strikes, leading to the brutal deployment of security forces using from what I’ve read – inhumane means of suppression.

Also, Zimbabwe cotton production is divided between 2 large corporations: Cottco and Cargill. Cottco is controlled by the government and Cargill is a private company that doesn’t have to be as public with its methods and standards.

In a country where the average age is 20 and the life expectancy is roughly twice that – a little more for men and a little less for women – it would be nice to know exactly where the cotton export dollars are going, and maybe even another reminder why the cotton is just right for jeans

Roland - thanks for recommending that book. I'll go pick it up when I have a chance!

Sauce - tell you the truth I'm not even sure if organic is better in terms of quality. I get the

feeling that its more of a feelgood lifestyle choice. Garbage in Garbage out - so

therefore organic would have to be better. Something like that I'm sure.

Edited by jdavis on Dec 21, 2005 at 08:59 AM

Zimbabwe cotton, touted as some of the best in the world by such denim makers as 45rpm and Prps, is a product of Robert Mugabe’s brutal regime. As the nation's sole ruler since ‘87, he’s crippled the economy with a 4 billion dollar debt, prevented UN aide, fallen short of IMF goals and seemingly done nothing to combat the negative population growth. A quarter of his country is infected with HIV/AIDS and won’t live past the age of 40. This is some very disturbing news.

If Prps places a Zimbabwe flag on their tees and other fashion, they should make a point of saying how they can guarantee that their dollars do more than fund Mugabe’s bar tab at the Harare cricket club.

As far as cotton quality is concerned, I’m not convinced that Zimbabwe cotton is the best in the world either, or even superior to USA/Egypt ELS (extra-long-staple) yarns. Zimbabwe cotton seems more likely to a cheaper alternative for Japan – which I certainly wouldn’t have a problem with if someone could tell me exactly why it was wasn’t making life in Zimbabwe worse.

I've been thinking about this for a some time and I’d really like to hear from anyone who’d like to comment – anyone who has similar feelings, and of course anyone who thinks entirely differently…