The Denim Debate

[Stacks]

I appreciate the clarification kiya and agree with you about the tendency for online negativity to have a snowball effect. At the same time, I think positivity for the sake of positivity can have a similar groupthink effect (aka hype) which leads to cynicism and cheapens the experience for some people (like me).

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions too quickly based on the marketing background of the site owner and the window dressing. True, the contributors are not being paid, but at least some of them are financially tied to the brands they blogging about.

For instance, Ryan Huber's contributor page links directly to the Context purchase page for the pair he is blogging about. The first "featured" contributor, who is sporting Baldwin Denim, is the Brand Manager for Baldwin Denim.

I'm certainly not trying to poison the well here; I hope anyone reading my posts will take them with a grain of salt and reach their own conclusions.

I'm all for encouragement of a passion among the passionate, but when that encouragement comes from people with possible ulterior motivations it becomes difficult not to feel manipulated. I suppose that's why I feel the need to waste my time pointing these things out on the internet :\

I will be following the site, though. I'm ready to be proven wrong.

[rnrswitch]

Stacks got the balls. I must spread rep around before giving it to stacks again.

[rnrswitch]

I appreciate the clarification kiya and agree with you about the tendency for online negativity to have a snowball effect. At the same time, I think positivity for the sake of positivity can have a similar groupthink effect (aka hype) which leads to cynicism and cheapens the experience for some people (like me).

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions too quickly based on the marketing background of the site owner and the window dressing. True, the contributors are not being paid, but at least some of them are financially tied to the brands they blogging about.

For instance, Ryan Huber's contributor page links directly to the Context purchase page for the pair he is blogging about. The first "featured" contributor, who is sporting Baldwin Denim, is the Brand Manager for Baldwin Denim.

I'm certainly not trying to poison the well here; I hope anyone reading my posts will take them with a grain of salt and reach their own conclusions.

I'm all for encouragement of a passion among the passionate, but when that encouragement comes from people with possible ulterior motivations it becomes difficult not to feel manipulated. I suppose that's why I feel the need to waste my time pointing these things out on the internet :\

I will be following the site, though. I'm ready to be proven wrong.

Dude, I didn't look that far into it, but it does seem a little conflict-of-interesty (that should be a word). Especially for people with the financial link. Hmmmm, i wonder what the Baldwin rep will say about the jeans. I bet he will be really critical and even handed.

[kiya]

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions too quickly based on the marketing background of the site owner and the window dressing. True, the contributors are not being paid, but at least some of them are financially tied to the brands they blogging about.

To be honest i have no idea who the site owner is nor have i ever heard of him. Also, the people wearing any jeans which we sell have absolutely no connection to the store or the brands which they're wearing.

[heprof]

Stacks got the balls. I must spread rep around before giving it to stacks again.

+1, well said Stacks.

Given that its called "Denim Debate" one would expect them to live up to the debate part.

If this is mostly a marketing ploy (nothing wrong with that) and there is good reason to believe that it is since a branding company is hosting the blog, they should change the name. Maybe something like Denim show and tell--then buy.

[ranonranonarat]

basically discussion is what a forum is for isn't it? i dont know about everyone else but im in this forum to learn and be kept updated about what happens outside of where im from. its good that stacks actually brought this up because i would've never had found out about denimdebate.

its a good thing that they have a few brands that are lesser discussed there, i.e. KMW, jean shop, 3sixteen etc and a few of the bigger brands. its always good to have more pictures but like what runormal said, i'd rather see a lot more of the normal guy in you and i, wearing em out. people who work hard jobs, gravediggers and people like that. we probably have a ton of sites with people already doing that but i think it really helps us connect visually, seeing these normal people doing what they do best in denim.

on a side note, no hate but im seeing the site as a little overly commercial. i still like coming to sufu to look at what people like zissou and gaijin are wearing today.

chillout guys, this forum has a lot of heat in it.

[Stacks]

To be honest i have no idea who the site owner is nor have i ever heard of him. Also, the people wearing any jeans which we sell have absolutely no connection to the store or the brands which they're wearing.

Absolutely and I hope people realize that I wasn't criticizing you or SE after you clarified your first remark above. It's a denim blog, you sell denim goods, makes perfect sense to advertise there.

I'm just glad you aren't going to be personally blogging about SExIH03s in order to "bridge the gap" between your bank account and my wallet.

[rnrswitch]

I'm not understanding the complaints about brand coverage here--lots is covered: made in USA to made in Japan; artisan (Ooe) to factory-made; repro brands to fashion brands, etc.

No need to get your chambray panties in a knot because there's no warehouse or samurai.

Hey, my chambray panties cost a lot and they are single stitched throughout man. I don't need them getting in a bunch.

I tried to + rep you JPSmith, but I must spread... for making me laugh that is. It would still be nice to see some more brands included even if it requires getting us involved.

Once again, I still like the idea.

Allow me to pull my panties out of my crack...

[LC_Miey]

i totally agree with Stacks.

i fail at words so i think i'll shut up.

But if its a marketing ploy. I think Ooe doesnt belong there

[salaami]

to be completely honest, although some of my favorite brands are not there(i would have loved to see warehouse here), the 30th anniversary SDA's are there, so at least the osaka5 is in the house. we also have momotaro( the most slept on japanese brand on sufu, trust me), ooe, RJB, and burgus(i can't wait to see these). it will be good to see how the hardcore japanese jeans compare to the american and euro brands. there is some commercial influence here, but all of us buy $300 jeans like it ain't shit, so somebody's always making $$$. so be it. funny thing is, this whole thing is more of a project than a debate. we've probably done more debating on this sufu thread than they will. this is just something else i'll use to learn more denim minutia, and feed my tapeworm for denim porn.

[geneticdrifter]

Oh ok, I get it, if your opinions are positive you can post in here because that qualifies as discussion, but if your opinion is negative it's group think crap and you're overthinking it.

I don't mind having an unpopular opinion; I don't mind when that opinion is attacked but I do mind when it's dismissed with a tired kneejerk one line response. So in an effort to have an actual discussion here, let me pose some questions:

What unique value do you think "tastemakers" bring to the denim "debate?" Do you think their status as "tastemakers" makes their opinion more honest, or more useful to denim consumers, than the opinions of other consumers?

Do you think there is a real "gap" between denim brands and denim consumers? What constitutes this gap? Is it simply technical information on the production process and materials or is there something more?

Is it admirable to make a connection with a brand rather than with an individual product?

I have my opinions but I think I'll wait until I get some responses so I don't promote more groupthink.

will anyone opposed to this "group think" care to actually answer these questions? kiya your thread, want to take a shot?

lol at this

he gets it^^^^

I appreciate the clarification kiya and agree with you about the tendency for online negativity to have a snowball effect. At the same time, I think positivity for the sake of positivity can have a similar groupthink effect (aka hype) which leads to cynicism and cheapens the experience for some people (like me).

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions too quickly based on the marketing background of the site owner and the window dressing. True, the contributors are not being paid, but at least some of them are financially tied to the brands they blogging about.

I'm all for encouragement of a passion among the passionate, but when that encouragement comes from people with possible ulterior motivations it becomes difficult not to feel manipulated. I suppose that's why I feel the need to waste my time pointing these things out on the internet :\

i haven't seen hype defined better. i must spread so i am quoting, because people don't read.

so kiya or beatle, or anyone willing to play devil's advocate, can you answer the questions posed and continue the debate? TO move the conversation away form knee-jerk reactions and provide some thought/perspective on the issue.

[LC_Miey]

[The end-state of the site will be an interactive forum of sorts; displaying everything from denim questions, style suggestions, video testimonials, and our contributors profile on the denim of their choice. We will feature what evolves from you, so just ask!QUOTE]

Looks like the next-superdenim forum is in the making. no?

Call me a hater but if you read "ABOUT" and "WELCOME' its definitely creative marketing paragraphs being composed there. And it is not just a one-off 'lets see how some denims fade' but the site is started as a fundamental work for something else along the line.

And if the sole purpose of the denimdebate is to shine the light to the uninformed, why do they need the 'advertisements' flashing left and right and why do they expect the something back from the readers (comments,questions etc) ? plus twitter/facebook seems a bit excessive for just a sole purpose to inform the niche of people who interested in denim?

I got this feeling that denimdebate is setup to target those who are buying standard-off-the rack jeans like e.g gap ,top shop so they understand the reasons to justify buying $300+ denim thus they will be buying $300 premium denim for their next purchases or even end up as a collecter/ addict like us on sufu and keep on buying .

Therefore the small market for premium japanese denim that is now will grow rapidly in size so products are sold easily= more new customers, more product sold more profit.

I dont mind if denimdebate is marketing tool it happens everywhere but dont try to put on the make-up saying nicely the purpose of the site is just to compare fading and discuss jeans

it sickening.

i hope im wrong. Im sure some of the guys on denimdebate lurks sufu so maybe they can answer.

[milosz]

When I read the word marketing, that's when I reach for my revolver.

The concept is similar to something I was toying with, but don't know jack shit about web development. My basic premise is that Superdenim is a horrible setup for following individual jean evos or even searching for most makes/models of jeans (but it's a great community for interaction on a day to day basis, reading about people rather than just denim). DenimWiki is a good idea, but somewhat impersonal.

I was thinking a mini-blog setup would work - folks create an account, post evo pics, what they're wearing today if they want, etc.. Make it easily categorized by brand and model. Have a main blog page similar to the What Are Your Jeans Doing Today thread, guest posters take it over for a day and post pics of what's going on.

My inability to follow through with any of this or make it into a better idea is probably why these guys are new media types in New York, and I'm a perpetual student/contractor in Texas.

[rnrswitch]

I assume it is a bit of both. Marketing and good intentions to inform. Some of the people have little to benefit from wearing their jeans, like the girl who is sporting the Left Fields, but the dude from Baldwin wearing Baldwin jeans, well that is just blatant marketing.

Overall, I like the idea. Being able to follow one pair of jeans with a person in a formatted way where I don't need to scan back to page 785 of Evolution of jeans pics to see the 6 months pics of Cheep's SDAs.

It would be cool to have a website where each person could open an account and just post pics and stories of their shit. I guess that is called a blog, but whatever. I think I am rambling now.

[milosz]

A blog with community - denim LiveJournals!

[iamstarwars]

I assume it is a bit of both. Marketing and good intentions to inform. Some of the people have little to benefit from wearing their jeans, like the girl who is sporting the Left Fields, but the dude from Baldwin wearing Baldwin jeans, well that is just blatant marketing.

Overall, I like the idea. Being able to follow one pair of jeans with a person in a formatted way where I don't need to scan back to page 785 of Evolution of jeans pics to see the 6 months pics of Cheep's SDAs.

It would be cool to have a website where each person could open an account and just post pics and stories of their shit. I guess that is called a blog, but whatever. I think I am rambling now.

This is exactly why we desperately need Tweeds to update the gallery... But it's probably hopeless at this point.

[16steps]

i havent clicked on this thread until today and here are my observations just from clicking the first post and BEFORE reading any arguments:

The idea was simple…

Sure you can find photos of new denim, and photos of destroyed denim nearing the end of their functional life, but nothing documenting the process in between. Frustrated by the lack of clear information, I reached out to a network of stylish colleagues to partake in a debate of sorts. Being highly involved in branding and marketing, I understand the value that these “tastemakers” bring to the debate.

furthermore:

Challenge: See how 22+ denim brands stand up against the efforts of the individuals assigned to wear them in. For the next year our contributors -from all walks of life- will live in their brand's entry. It will be the job of each to bring the denim to its knees, all the while documenting the progress for you to observe.

I feel like we already have an avenue for this, its called Superdenim. I dont know how others might feel, but i actually dont care too much for the "in between" time because that time is personal. How does Sidney fade a pair of SEXIH BKs so fast while my sufuxdb barely show signs of wear? Its personal. I can gaurantee you if him and i were to wear the same pair of jeans for the same period of time, they would look drastically different as is documented in Sid and Beats thread.

I feel people on this board buy jeans based on fit and ultimately their fading characteristics. When I look at a pair of flathead 1001, I generally know how FH denim will fade, and based on the features/cut of the jean, i can figure out how it would fit me.

If anything the line stating: "For the next year our contributors -from all walks of life- will live in their brand's entry. It will be the job of each to bring the denim to its knees, all the while documenting the progress for you to observe." just sounds like a 1-man denim tour.

Being highly involved in branding and marketing, I understand the value that these “tastemakers” bring to the debate. -

-uhhh... ok? What exactly will they do?

These individuals will bridge the gap between brand and buyer, giving an honest look at denim

- sounds honest and NOT like a marketing ploy.

I would imagine that anyone who has access to denimdebate would probably have access to sufu too. Sufu has a thread for every jean company (and sometimes individual jeans) so finding this exact information wouldnt be too hard. It would take years for DD to amass the wealth of information that sufu has

At the end of the day, i think Denimdebates' intentions are very clear and that is to get you off of the japanese denim hype and into some other jeans. If DD came out and just said they wanted to be the next big online denim message board, i think that might have suited their marketing needs a little better in that they wouldnt be so blatantly trying to create interest

[milosz]

I dont know how others might feel, but i actually dont care too much for the "in between" time because that time is personal. How does Sidney fade a pair of SEXIH BKs so fast while my sufuxdb barely show signs of wear? Its personal. I can gaurantee you if him and i were to wear the same pair of jeans for the same period of time, they would look drastically different as is documented in Sid and Beats thread.

This is basically the point of Denim Debate (and the denim blog idea being thrown around earlier) - see how the denim is effected by each of these folks' lives. It's a streamlining of what goes on at Superdenim, separating the community discussion aspect from the "this is what's going on in my life" aspect (for better or worse).

Since they're a bunch of bloggers and shop owners, I don't expect anything too radical. The jeans Kiya gave to the homeless chef or Klue's FullCounts are going to make for more interesting stories (and ultimately, fades) than a bunch of white-collar dudes.

[16steps]

This is basically the point of Denim Debate (and the denim blog idea being thrown around earlier) - see how the denim is effected by each of these folks' lives.

i see....but why would i (or we) give a shit?

[kiya]

i see....but why would i (or we) give a shit?

This is not necessarily for Superdenim nerds, from what i gather it's intended to be focused more on people not familiar with any of these brands or the raw denim world.

[milosz]

What kiya said, plus the fact that people are generally interested in the lives of others (aka the entire concept of social media).

An interest that is routinely demonstrated here on the LVC, contest, Beatle v. Sidney, WAYWT, WAYJDT, various repro brand, etc. threads.

[grundletaint]

it's an interesting idea. i just really hope they figure out a way to organize it better than having to thumb through shitty flickr accounts.

i'd like to at least be able to click on an individual contributor and be taken to their page or shots or whatever.

and, i despise flickr.

they at least need to figure out a uniform system to name the fucking files, too.

[rnrswitch]

While some of y'all don't care about the "in betweens." That is almost all I care about. Especially since I don't really see any "end" to my jeans. To me, once I put them on they are at the breaking in stage and for the most part they will never reach the end of the breaking in stage.

The in-betweens is where it is at. The proverbial journey not the end game. I would like to see dudes like eltopo chronicle the denim process. People who can capture the details of the denim (action shots, still shots, etc.), not just some dude throwing pics up on Evolution of jeans, with the pics all overexposed/blurry/out-of-focus and shit.

I hope these guys can attempt to do something like that, but again, I doubt it will be like that. As far as I can see some of the folks have been wearing their jeans for some time and haven't really posted any updates.

[akka225]

akka225, you didn't actually read my post, did you?

i have read all of your posts in this thread, and i think the two statements i quoted are wildly contradictory and illustrate your general attitude towards us on this forum. so, i wanted to preserve them for the record.

your role as friendly sufu denim expert and self edge profiteer presents an entanglement that, in my opinion, deserves constant scrutiny. clearly, that bothers you. but maybe you should just accept it rather than "neg repping" me for lol'ing at your folly.

would you criticize "over thinking" and "group think" if it were to lead to someone paying $400 for khakis from your store?

[dbk4sf]

the bagwin guy can't be shilling cause he has the worst fit, debate over

[geneticdrifter]

Looks like the next-superdenim forum is in the making. no?

I got this feeling that denimdebate is setup to target those who are buying standard-off-the rack jeans like e.g gap ,top shop so they understand the reasons to justify buying $300+ denim thus they will be buying $300 premium denim for their next purchases or even end up as a collecter/ addict like us on sufu and keep on buying .

I have a slightly different fear/suspicion. i see it as sufu light. where noobs won't get "flamed" they'll be treated like freshly minted dollars. Coddled into a downward spiral of declining quality. A place where, everyone will equate selvage to quality. where the quality of the denim will degrade, but give "epic fades" so be seen as "valuable?" Basically a scheme to make jeans that cost as much the gap, top shop stuff, look like they are worth 300 dollars jeans, by putting a fancy window dressing on it and lathering it in "positive group think" aka hype. Businesses want to make money.

The brands frequently purchased here can't keep up with demand. increased demand is going to lower the value (declining quality to keep up with demand, how many old looms are there?) of the average product and force people like us to pay more from the guys who aren't selling out and still constructing impeccable garments. call me cynical but money makes the world go round.

When I read the word marketing, that's when I reach for my revolver.

The concept is similar to something I was toying with, but don't know jack shit about web development. My basic premise is that Superdenim is a horrible setup for following individual jean evos or even searching for most makes/models of jeans (but it's a great community for interaction on a day to day basis, reading about people rather than just denim). DenimWiki is a good idea, but somewhat impersonal.

you want facebook but exclusively for denim. post updates and shit. or even twitter. Your ideas are executable currently methinks. if we all had different twitter thread for out different pairs. am i making sense? i don't use facebook or twitter but seems like it would work.

i have read all of your posts in this thread, and i think the two statements i quoted are wildly contradictory and illustrate your general attitude towards us on this forum. so, i wanted to preserve them for the record.

your role as friendly sufu denim expert and self edge profiteer presents an entanglement that, in my opinion, deserves constant scrutiny. clearly, that bothers you. but maybe you should just accept it rather than "neg repping" me for lol'ing at your folly.

would you criticize "over thinking" and "group think" if it were to lead to someone paying $400 for khakis from your store?

^^^must spread. i agree and i think you are quite accurate. it's our job as consumers to separate the friendly shop keeper from the internet hype machine.

so kiya....? your thread. you opened the can of worms. and you called him out.

care to respond to this? or any of the questions stacks asked? you aren't shying away from the discussion you asked for are you now? this isn't the thread for your store. the podium is yours and i for one am all ears.

and as a side note, i'm all for business and capitalism. i don't care what anyone does to get money. I can't judge Kiya or anyone else for doing what they think is necessary to feed their families or pocket books. so don't take the debate as an attack on you Kiya, or the way you make your money. If people buy what you sell, then congrats; you are a success.

[kiya]

Once again, you're over thinking this..

A few guys contacted us to buy jeans for a blog they were doing, we sold them the jeans, they launched the site and i decided to start a thread on it.

Looks like your baiting isn't working too well for this subject, better find something else to pull with.

[CUTUP]

I think its an interesting idea, it just wasn't executed in a way that goes with the ideals of those who are in that niche market here

One of the main reasons people love some of the more " under the radar" brands is that they are not being force fed it through mainstream magazines and blogs to fit in with everyone else.

And now it sounds like someone is bordering the idea of getting said brands into the mainstream by making themselves sound like one of the "group" meanwhile they are really just marketing what they and their friends sell, its written in plain English hidden in their blog postings

It sounds like an interesting, but tainted endeavor IMO

I get why you posted it Kiya, and I can totally understand why you wouldn't want people to kill the vibe by over analyzing. But when you are the one who helped to sell some these jeans to them, you can maybe understand why people are questioning "reading too much " into what you, or they are saying.

People here question EVERYTHING, its the sole purpose of forums IMO. I am sure you get inundated with boatloads of pms from people on a daily basis, so I am sure you know this to be true.

So if the responses would have bothered you if they didnt follow your positive tone, maybe you should have asked to post it and have the thread locked ?

No hate directed at anyone here ( especially you Kiya), this is also not "baiting", its just people sharing opinions that differ from your own, nothing more nothing less.

[milosz]

My take on those concerns -

Not all the brands being hyped are the posters' buddies - the guys behind Ooe-Yofukuten have never met the guy behind The Hill_Side, I wager. Aside from the Baldwin and Context dudes, I'm not sure there's much connection between the posters and the brands.

It's an internet marketing scheme, so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will fail miserably at gaining a large audience. It's not like Rolling Stone (or even The Fader) started dedicated a section in every issue to denim evos.

[DrMoBueno]

lulz @ the tags