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Clockwork_killa

The design industry

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you have to earn a living, if you're doing more work than initially agreed upon (you should really draw up a contract, if you haven't) you're entitled to remuneration.

if this person is likely to be a long-term client then I think you should broach the subject carefully/sensibly.

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advertising is not fulfilling if you cherish traditional design or working on projects that see the light of day. not worth sinking 70+k deeper in debt to be a part of either.

i'm a huge proponent for MFA's and education but unless you have disposable means then it's not a smart decision specifically for advertising, as you already have the schooling needed to become a CD via your BFA (look through linkedin at CD's who have MFA's - hardly any). the skills you learn that prepare you for CD-dom are way disproportionate to the cost (mental, economical, temporal).

think of the options !

either blaze the trail to be a CD by the quickest/cheapest/smartest solution possible

or cop an MFA and invest in yourself by opening up your own agency

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Any web developers in here? Need some advice on CSS3 transitions.

Edited by N-O-R-S-E

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get into interactive design. Lots of mobile work out there.

interactive design looks pretty cool, im not sure but i think i saw it as a career in computer science? i'm currently enrolled in an intro to CS class but yesterday i was thinking of dropping it because the main reason that i enrolled in the class was to hopefully spark some interest in me with CS but the class is only and intro class and most of it is just working with excel and doing databases (my teacher also said it would be pretty hard to fail the class so its deff not a challenging class and im worried im not gonna like it)... i did more research on CS yesterday and theres so many things you can do with it but I'm still not sure... and this indecisiveness is killing me.

here's a pretty legit list of schools, most of which are considered "top tier": http://www.businessi...ls-2012-11?op=1

AH+, i saw in the fonts thread that Columbia is the school you're considering transferring to? based on their website and student portfolios, it seems pretty average/mediocre. check out that list, cuz there's a few Chicago-based schools on there if you're tied down to that city

edit: here's another, more global, list of design schools: http://images.busine...hools/index.htm

hey man, thanks for trying to help me out an to everyone else on here too, thanks for the list also. i keep going back and forth on whether i should keep on with GD or just do something completely different like CS or some other career in the sciences, which Im mainly looking into rn. Like pointed out N-O-R-S-E, a strong portfolio could get me really far and beat all the odds when its comes to the GD unemployment rate but my main concern is the fear and not enough confidence that GD will be a profitable career for me. i've considered many other careers but their job outlooks and salaries are just plain horrible. i dont know weather to laugh or cry at my current situation.

Edited by AH+

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Thanks for your insights, to answer your questions:

Phen3n - Im sorta split on whether to be a "hands-on, dirty work" designer or be on the creative direction side because I enjoy both aspects. I just know in the end, creative direction is where you'll make a better living, monetary speaking.

BrennisCloute & Yea! - Yeah, I agree it is possible to blaze your own trail in this industry, but in reality, its rather difficult. I've come to realize, much like in any industry, It is about who you know. For example, I went to undergrad with a guy. He's a sub-par designer and ,judging by his site his creative ideas are sub-par as well, but now currently works at my city's largest, most reputable ad agency as a junior art director. Not to say in jealous Im happy for him, but I think he primarily got the job because of family connections more so than anything.

I know if youre good enough you'll eventually get noticed, so I was proposing to myself that if I go to a reputable design school with the skills and knowledge of design & creative direction I have, It would at least help me get my foot in the door to some larger agencies / companies. I just don't know if taking on an extra $60k in loans or whatever is worth it.

i'm in a similar position as you, mmfood (in-house creative director, looking to move to agency work eventually)

here's what i think: no, you don't need more schooling to get this kind of job. but yes, you do need it to excel at your job and work for a credible agency. in my opinion, it would be worth the money. in fact, i'm tryna go to Art Center in a year or two for Media Design and i'm willing to go deeper into debt for it if i need to, because i see it as an investment. but keep in mind, i value education very highly, and there's lots of designers who argue in favor of work experience over schooling...

are you trying to get into more hands-on, dirty work designing or more creative direction and design management?

i think it's possible to do without a master's. not completely necessary but would help you become a better CD.

alt route: art & creative direction is a thing where it may be easier to bounce around to work your way up. a senior designer can bounce into an AD position at a different agency, an effective and experienced AD could easily bounce into a CD position somewhere else if your agency isn't receptive. while doing this, you'll work with CD's daily and learn what they do, what you need to learn how to do better, etc. it's just a chain like anything else. not the most convenient but neither is $60k in loans you know?

check out art director internships.

also check out wk12 too, though i think you may pay for that (?)

advertising is not fulfilling if you cherish traditional design or working on projects that see the light of day. not worth sinking 70+k deeper in debt to be a part of either.

i'm a huge proponent for MFA's and education but unless you have disposable means then it's not a smart decision specifically for advertising, as you already have the schooling needed to become a CD via your BFA (look through linkedin at CD's who have MFA's - hardly any). the skills you learn that prepare you for CD-dom are way disproportionate to the cost (mental, economical, temporal).

think of the options !

either blaze the trail to be a CD by the quickest/cheapest/smartest solution possible

or cop an MFA and invest in yourself by opening up your own agency

Edited by mmfood

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Also, whats up with Yale's MFA Graphic Design program? Looking through all the portfolios on their site, all the work is kinda ehh. I understand it supposed to be more so conceptual design. I'm I missing something? If so, please enlighten me.

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Also, whats up with Yale's MFA Graphic Design program? Looking through all the portfolios on their site, all the work is kinda ehh. I understand it supposed to be more so conceptual design. I'm I missing something? If so, please enlighten me.

apparently they're not what they used to be these days..?

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Thanks for your insights, to answer your questions:

Phen3n - Im sorta split on whether to be a "hands-on, dirty work" designer or be on the creative direction side because I enjoy both aspects. I just know in the end, creative direction is where you'll make a better living, monetary speaking.

BrennisCloute & Yea! - Yeah, I agree it is possible to blaze your own trail in this industry, but in reality, its rather difficult. I've come to realize, much like in any industry, It is about who you know. For example, I went to undergrad with a guy. He's a sub-par designer and ,judging by his site his creative ideas are sub-par as well, but now currently works at my city's largest, most reputable ad agency as a junior art director. Not to say in jealous Im happy for him, but I think he primarily got the job because of family connections more so than anything.

I know if youre good enough you'll eventually get noticed, so I was proposing to myself that if I go to a reputable design school with the skills and knowledge of design & creative direction I have, It would at least help me get my foot in the door to some larger agencies / companies. I just don't know if taking on an extra $60k in loans or whatever is worth it.

it's absolutely about who you know. i think that idea is viewed negatively though. knowing people in this industry is an awesome thing, very powerful, leads to potentially incredible work, ideas, etc. i think that should be embraced to get you where you want to be as long as the give/give is balanced.

seriously, check out art director internships. like you mentioned, many sub-par designers i went to undergrad with have done this and now are jr AD's or AD's in well respected agencies in NYC and Chicago.

also entering an agency at the designer level will give you enough information on how to move up or if going back to school is necessary - some i know did this and are now AD's (1.5 years out of BFA).

yale is still an incredible program. i have a good friend who's a 1st year there now & he's mentioned it's completely possible to go through the GDMFA and come out a bad designer, in that it's not a machine that makes you better. i think it's worth mentioning that not all were designers previously, some are learning things like InDesign or typesetting for the first time (really cool).

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Did the agency program. Ad life is for a certain kind of person.

If you arent having kids, dont want to be around for important life experiences, but want a golden pencil, go into the agency world.

Pulling all nighters, losing touch with friends and family for work and a thankless grind all in the name of a clients wishes didnt make sense to me. No one remembers the AD on a great ad or campaign. they remember the brand.

All that said, im a designer working at a huge respectable brand, got time for pursing my art and life. I do miss the opportunity for fast growth and exciting projects, but life is all about balance and some things are more important.

Edited by EG562

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apparently they're not what they used to be these days..?

Have you tried scratching your chin just so?

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Did the agency program. Ad life is for a certain kind of person.

If you arent having kids, dont want to be around for important life experiences, but want a golden pencil, go into the agency world.

Pulling all nighters, losing touch with friends and family for work and a thankless grind all in the name of a clients wishes didnt make sense to me. No one remembers the AD on a great ad or campaign. they remember the brand.

All that said, im a designer working at a huge respectable brand, got time for pursing my art and life. I do miss the opportunity for fast growth and exciting projects, but life is all about balance and some things are more important.

I interned at an small ad agency while in school, I understand the sacrifices one must make in order to be successful in this industry. Ive heard stories (and experienced) the horror of the ad industry but I still feel like it something I want to do, work at a large agency.

EG562, any advice on how to get into a large agency?

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Yeah I dont doubt that Yale's GDMFA program isn't good. It just seems like a whole lot of good graphic designers get rejected from the program. When I look at the portfolio of some of the students, it just seems like the work is not very pleasing aesthetically (to me). It just seems odd to me that this program is very much sought after, but the work doesn't really reflect why it is (to me). Is it just the prestige of having a degree from Yale? Paul Rand taught there?

Its like Im missing some idea or concept in my head so that I don't consider any of the work in these students portfolios very good. if they're being to taught to reject design principles and trends. If that's the case, then they're doing an ok job I guess.

I Understand that some students in the program weren't design students to began with. So why choose these students over worthy graphic designers? What are the people at Yale who evaluate new design students' portfolios basing their judgments on?

Edited by mmfood

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yeah man don't know how to respond to that. sounds like that stems from a misunderstanding or dislike of a lot of graphic design.

what do you see as good graphic design?

Edited by yea!

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Its like Im missing some idea or concept in my head so that I don't consider any of the work in these students portfolios very good. if they're being to taught to reject design principles and trends. If that's the case, then they're doing an ok job I guess.

you're not missing anything. their work is trendy post/anti design crap. at yale, conforming to some vacuous contemporary aesthetic is apparently more important than actually being taught anything.

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yeah man don't know how to respond to that. sounds like that stems from a misunderstanding or dislike of a lot of graphic design.

what do you see as good graphic design?

That may be so..

I consider this to be "good graphic design":

405412054.jpg

this, not so much:

405412055.jpg

Don't get me wrong, there are examples Ive seen in a few portfolios which were pretty amazing, but just works like this, Im just kinda like, oh word?

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thats cool. to each his own, but that wasnt really the point.

The point is: the second piece, I do in fact find interesting on a conceptual level, but in a design sense I do not see the quality in it at all. I think if it was in a different medium, something not digital, I would appreciate it a lot more. But to me, it looks like a MS paint work that homie took about 30 seconds to make and called it art.

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well, design isn't art (although it can be), but it serves a different primary purpose (not being condescending or confrontational). the first looks like the illustration for a magazine article (and looks like it took 30 seconds to me, but time spent should never be a consideration for critique), the 2nd makes sense as a poster for the biennial.

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Did the agency program. Ad life is for a certain kind of person.

If you arent having kids, dont want to be around for important life experiences, but want a golden pencil, go into the agency world.

Pulling all nighters, losing touch with friends and family for work and a thankless grind all in the name of a clients wishes didnt make sense to me. No one remembers the AD on a great ad or campaign. they remember the brand.

All that said, im a designer working at a huge respectable brand, got time for pursing my art and life. I do miss the opportunity for fast growth and exciting projects, but life is all about balance and some things are more important.

Mind if I ask what agency/agencies you were at?

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both of those just look like illustrations rather than designs (let's see some logos and layouts and other applied designs).

anyway i think it's kinda pointless arguing over which of these two random works is "better" when they're just different styles: vectory/geometric vs lo-fi/MSPainty

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when was the last time u mugs used paint? try and make anything close to that, and i will pay you handsomely.

personally if i had to generalise, i would put yale graduates in the top tier, easily—and i'm not lenient.

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well, design isn't art (although it can be), but it serves a different primary purpose (not being condescending or confrontational). the first looks like the illustration for a magazine article (and looks like it took 30 seconds to me, but time spent should never be a consideration for critique), the 2nd makes sense as a poster for the biennial.

Let me rephrase: it looks like a MS paint work that homie took about 30 seconds to make and called it art a day.

Yeah I agree effective, good design can take any length of time, whether 30 seconds to many years. Im just saying there's more to be desired, design-wise, from some (not all) of the portfolios I have seen from Yale grads.

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i'm going through yale's gdmfa exhibit website(s) right now and to be honest i don't know what the debate is. this is amazing work

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get into interactive design. Lots of mobile work out there.

on this note, check out this vid on UX/interactive design, there's some great interviews from notable agencies/companies.

also, younghee jung is so wifeable

Edited by phen3N

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The risk inherent to a career in graphic design is that our culture of mass production has robbed most people of their sense of aesthetics, and has also desensitized most of them to the concept of artisanal work. As a result, a good deal of potential clients literally cannot differentiate between good and bad design, nor do they see design as the work of a highly skilled individual. They regard design as a step in the construction process, executed by someone who knows where the buttons are in 'adobe'. Sadly, there are a lot of schools and students nowadays who more or less feel the same way about design, and even tailor their curriculum to 'what the market wants'. This is the type of graphic design that has seen explosive growth since the desktop publishing revolution and the rise of the internet, and it's these people who can't find work, because for every button-pushing design job, there are ten 'qualified' people.

Then there's the type of graphic design as it should be, conscientious, technical, theoretical and artisanal. Practiced by some of the more established bureaus, and by highly talented freelancers. These people will always have work, because while there is significantly less demand for this type of design, the demand still outnumbers the few people who work like this. If this sounds like you, go for it, dude. If the first paragraph sounds closer to home, save yourself a future in "can we get this in purple"-hell and pick another creative direction.

Very insightful. I did a big agency internship last summer and I'm positive I would be better suited elsewhere. I'm looking to acquire a paid internship at a smaller agency in NYC this summer.

Personally I enjoy more thoughtful, conceptual design rather than the opposite where it's driven by trends and an agrred-upon aesthetic. I'd rather search for a way to express an idea rather than try to express a basic idea through a typeface or lifestyle photo if you catch my drift...

Edited by Desaturated

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Mind if I ask what agency/agencies you were at?

They just won a important award, their name is also a temperature.

Advice on getting into agencies;

mine recruiter contact info. ask around and find out who does creative talent recruitment. Holler at them. Weez contacts like no ones business. get internships. hang out with interns at other agencies/brands, they always know whats going on. go to grad shows. join your local aiga chapter and goto their events and become a fixture. have a amazing book that tells YOUR story and represents you as a person, not a rehash of typical projects and styles. Agencies want an individual, play up what sets you appart. You draw well? Get some illustration projects in there. I had amazing response from interviews for the stuff that wasnt conventional AD stuff. And get it infront of everyone possible. be prolific. be in the right place at the right time. treat every freelance project like its the key to a door you have yet to open.

anyone else got any thoughts on this?

Also, wtf are those examples of design good/bad?

Edited by EG562

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They just won a important award, their name is also a temperature.

Advice on getting into agencies;

mine recruiter contact info. ask around and find out who does creative talent recruitment. Holler at them. Weez contacts like no ones business. get internships. hang out with interns at other agencies/brands, they always know whats going on. go to grad shows. join your local aiga chapter and goto their events and become a fixture. have a amazing book that tells YOUR story and represents you as a person, not a rehash of typical projects and styles. Agencies want an individual, play up what sets you appart. You draw well? Get some illustration projects in there. I had amazing response from interviews for the stuff that wasnt conventional AD stuff. And get it infront of everyone possible. be prolific. be in the right place at the right time. treat every freelance project like its the key to a door you have yet to open.

anyone else got any thoughts on this?

Also, wtf are those examples of design good/bad?

Word. Got some friends of friends there now.

You basically covered it. Meet everyone you can. E-mail everyone you can, especially recruiters. Get used to NEVER HEARING ANYTHING BACK, but eventually you will. Keep in contact with anyone you like. Have fun with people...it's the best way to "network."

Remember it's just advertising...shit is a bane on the world to begin with, so don't take it too seriously.

Edited by youkinorn2

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any advice for those of us going to a less than prestigious school for a BFA in GD? i mean i keep telling myself that the work/portfolio is what really counts but i have doubts from time to time. i go to a state college in RI, so finding a job in general in any field is damn near impossible here, much less when im competing for an internship positions against RISD students. i love graphic design, but grad school is not really financially viable for me. im not looking to become an AD in 1 year out of college, i can put in work. so what say you experienced professionals?

also wondering any of you guys from the south? whats the market like over there?

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also i just went thru some of the yale stuff and while its not the most technically cutting edge its pretty strong conceptual stuff, i dig it.

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