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Vintage Denim?

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4 minutes ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

Those are some big back pockets :blink:

Oh yes, super big:laugh:

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J. C. Penny's 'Foremost' brand -

c.1926-1930 model, difference between 20's and 30's buckle/strap placement, 1930's model vs late 1930's Levis 501XX, late 1930's with more stylised arc, late 1930's next to 1920's Can't Bust em Cpper kings (with no arcs)

 

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Posted (edited)

Montgomery Ward's model 101 - 

 

 

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Edited by Dr_Heech

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Quality stuff. The Foremost / Levi’s comparison pic is superb - the Levi’s look better but my brain’s probably conditioned to think that :mellow:

I was Googling to see if Levi’s clamped down on these actuates after they registered theirs. Couldn’t find anything but did see this interesting page of Levi’s live trademarks

https://www.gerbenlaw.com/trademarks/apparel/levis/#90088399

The older ones are at the bottom. Chuff knows what the Puboo one is all about...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dr_Heech said:

'Unknown' brands -

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Standard Overall Mfg. Co. out of Wisconsin was the business that established the brand ‘Standard Overall’ as the label suggests - dunno how long they existed.

Was the Montgomery Ward stuff made by Powrhouse by way of a business arrangement or was Powrhouse owned by Montgomery Ward? 

Edited by Duke Mantee

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36 minutes ago, unders said:

.. l was Googling to see if Levi’s clamped down on these actuates after they registered theirs. Couldn’t find anything but did see this interesting page of Levi’s ...

In sort of answer to your question, l think all the jeans shown being manufactured at this time had exposed rivets and levis type arcs, but customers were fed up with the exposed rivets. So when Levis brought out their patented hidden rivet jeans (1937), alot of companies lost out, as this stopped anyone else using this idea for 15 years. 

I quite often think that the 1937 type 501xx would have been the standard jean for more years to come, if the war hadn't intervened. 

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6 minutes ago, Duke Mantee said:

Standard Overall Mfg. Co. out of Wisconsin was the business that established the brand ‘Standard Overall’ as the label suggests - dunno how long they existed.

Was the Montgomery Ward stuff made by Powrhouse by way of a business arrangement or was Powrhouse owned by Montgomery Ward? 

Tbh mate l haven't researched either.

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1 hour ago, Dr_Heech said:

I quite often think that the 1937 type 501xx would have been the standard jean for more years to come, if the war hadn't intervened. 

Thanks for these posts Charlie. Re the above, do you not think Levi’s would have dropped the cinch back anyway due to changing tastes? As you know, the press on suspender buttons were optional and many wearers were apparently cutting the cinch off anyway to wear a belt more comfortably.

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8 minutes ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Thanks for these posts Charlie. Re the above, do you not think Levi’s would have dropped the cinch back anyway due to changing tastes? As you know, the press on suspender buttons were optional and many wearers were apparently cutting the cinch off anyway to wear a belt more comfortably.

I think you're right Martin. I think they would've dropped that feature eventually but l think Levis were always slow to change, so it would've been a few more years before that would have happened (?). Also, theirs was one of the few brands to have the cinch strap sort of under where the belt sits, making the cut off necessary, whereas most others the cinch strap sits under the belt so it's more of an option than a decision and/or loss.

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^this early 1920's type 1 is in the Levis archives l believe, here are some more pics from Paul T's book  - 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Formal request, help me date these 501s... my grandma wants me to get an expert (that’s you guys, not me) to date my granddads jeans

I also don’t think i’ve shared any good photos so here you are, thanks

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Edited by scooby
oopsies

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10 minutes ago, scooby said:

Formal request, help me date these 501s... my grandma wants me to get an expert (that’s you guys, not me) to date my granddads jeans

I also don’t think i’ve shared any good photos so here you are, thanks

Looks like they are from the early to mid 50s. Double sided red tab + leather patch would have to be before about 1955 ish. Thats an amazing pair, super cool they've been held on to in your fam

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Posted (edited)

@scooby

Double sided red tab so post 1953. Leather patch disappeared c.1959, no offset belt loop so pre-1958.

Nearest l can date them to is made somewhere between 1954 and 1957.

Dont suppose there are any numbers/letters on the button backs or hidden rivets??

Edited by Dr_Heech
To edit, dummy

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Did pop's use a tape measure in his line of work scoobs?

I get the same wear pattern on all my work jeans, perfectly intact left hand pocket, destroyed right hand pocket

 

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58 minutes ago, scooby said:

@Dr_Heech L.S.&CO-S.F.- is it

Turn the jeans inside out - the back-side of the top button in particular. They are probably too early to have any distinguishing numbers there(?)

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@Dr_Heech nothing. just the rivets

@Double 0 Soul yep, that's what I figured too. he was a boilermaker, pipefitter, welder -- I take it these were his weekend jeans just by the lack of stains

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Posted (edited)

These beauties were posted on lg the other day and l thought they were worth sharing. At first l thought they were the pair from the 501XX book but they are a different size and have a "for over 60 years" guarantee ticket.

But l wanted to share not only because they are awesome but also because they have what looks to have a visible reason for not being bought (?) back in the day - a pocket stitch malfunction. 

 

 

 

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Then on closer inspection l noticed this  ....

 

 

 

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Yep, it's that weird (breifly used?) under-stitched middle back belt loop so that may help with when this feature was used? Although for what reason l still can't fathom out.

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Edited by Dr_Heech

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Posted (edited)

Here are the other deadstock pair from the 501XX book, complete with the guarantee ticket "For over 50 years", so an earlier pair (although how early?) with a pic of the details showing the  regular back belt loop. They also came with a sales receipt dated 1936 (not shown).

 

 

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According to the book the guarantee tickets are as follows -

 

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So if "For over (F/o) 20 years" is c.1892, and "F/o 26 years" is c.1898, then "F/o 35 years" is c.1907.

So the next ticket is "F/o 50 years" which would make it c.1922, No??

But all the F/over 50 year tickets l've seen images of are all dated 1927, in line with the copyrighting of the Levis brand name, so not 1922. So does this mean that the ticket wasn't replaced in 1922 or did Levis wait til 1927 because they had this new branding idea (etc) in the pipeline???

My thinking is that Levis dating is all over the place as usual. So if 1922/1927 is the "F/o 50 years" then in my mind the "F/o 60 years" must be c.1932 ...No??

To be continued ...

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dr_Heech
Cos it takes ages to sort

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Posted (edited)

So l believe that the 1922 guarantee ticket was delayed due to some the following reasons. In 1919, Walter Haas joined the company and was given the task of turning around the ailing buisness within 2 years and that he did. In 1919 bartacking was becoming commonplace and in 1922 that new technology was used to put belt loops on the pants. Secondly he then introduced (c.1924-1927) the company to the modern production line, so the pants were made quicker/differently and more efficiently plus sewing, rivet and button technology were rapidly improving. Lastly, because everyone called their blue denim waist overalls 'Levis', the company was desperate to brand their stuff so it wouldn't be confusing for customers who bought inferior products thinking they were the original XX waist overalls. 

So therefore the next ticket "F/o 60 years" must be c.1932 imo. Also the model made in 1942 has a ticket stating "For over 70 years" (but still with the copyright 1927 in the corner) plus the second dated pocket flasher - the first one was dated 1937 but the second one (when they had to drop the word Copper) was dated 1942, so it makes sense: 1922(1927), 1932, 1942 are all 10 years apart.

 

In the 'Vintage Levis jackets' book, there is a 506 with an NRA tag; the only NRA tagged 501's are in the Levis archives and not in the 501XX book. The national recovery act was 1933-1935.

In this pick the following dates are also suggested ...

 

 

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So therefore l reckon the ds pair l first posted  ("F/o 60 years" ) with the inverted beltloop were made in c.1932/1933 just before the NRA came in to effect. All the pairs l have pics of (next post) are all post 1928, when Levis branding on more modern/functional buttons and rivets was established, but before 1933 (nra tagged) pairs.

Hey it's just a theory but something to mull over l guess :unsure2:

...

Edited by Dr_Heech

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Posted (edited)

Here we go - 

 

 

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Edited by Dr_Heech

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2 hours ago, Dr_Heech said:

So therefore l reckon the ds pair l first posted  ("F/o 60 years" ) with the inverted beltloop were made in c.1932/1933 just before the NRA came in to effect. All the pairs l have pics of (next post) are all post 1928, when Levis branding on more modern/functional buttons and rivets was established, but before 1933 (nra tagged) pairs.

 

Hey it's just a theory but something to mull over l guess :unsure2:

...

I think it’s a very sound theory - logical

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@Dr_Heech I’ve been thinking why Levis would stitch the belt loop under like that. The best I can come up with is maybe, for a while, they (either some machinists or the whole firm?) thought it would be stronger and give some support for the cinch when tucked through the loop (per some of your photos). Almost like a seat for the cinch. Would explain why it’s that loop alone.

Probably talking out of my arse, but it’s the best I got :blush:

Ps, I picked up the Ed Cray book a few weeks ago after seeing it you recommend it to another forum member. Brilliant stuff. 

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