The cost of the raw denim lifestyle

[rnrswitch]

Kiya is doing a great job of preserving endangered craft traditions; he's one of the few US dealers commissioning, for example, new denims and chambrays.

But there's a big problem there, always is with traditional items, whether they're leather bags, Leica cameras, or Belstaff jackets. With the proliferation of cheap clothing, the price of the decent stuff goes up. Soon, they get so expensive that purchasers don't buy it because it's a well-made product for a reasonable price, but because it's hip, because it's exclusive, because it's expensive.

The whole thing is pretty depressing; Belstaff stuff is now shit, and overpriced. One time decent leather gear, like Mulbery or Tanner Kroll, is expensive, but the quality fo the leather has tumbled.

I guess I'm showing my age, in that the last but one pair of vintage Levi's I got, late 50s or early 60s, cost £12.50. Even allow for inflation, and I find the £300 or so that is being asked for 555 LVC ludicrous. I'm glad people are being turned on to hardcore denim, though; most people will get bored and move on to something else, but some will stay with it, appreciate it, and maybe help other companies, who make great stuff, survive.

I too think it is good for a lot of people to be into good craftsmanship and buying hand crafted items. I do hope people stick with it and out last the fad. I know some people are into the exclusivity of this stuff, but I wish it became less exclusive so that the price would come down, but as long as there is some bunch of people buying up all the good denim the price will go up. Only when manufacturers start producing nice denim/clothing en masse will the price start to fall. The problem is that the infrastructure is set up to build cheap crap and until that infrastructure swings back the other way will prices start coming down. I believe that LVC type jeans (47, 55) could be made a lot cheaper if they were mass produced.

[Osmosis Jones]

i can justify spending money on raw denim. ever since high school, i've bought clothing that will never look bad even as styles change. solid color tees with solid color hoodies/jackets with one pair of jeans per year.

i buy my jeans on my birthday(or close to it) so they're almost always half paid for by somebody else. i also look for deals all the time so i haven't bought anything at full retail for a long long time.

[andewhall]

Hidden back pocket rivets are one of the reasons. Manufacture is priced by minutes/seconds per part. Do the 55's have hidden rivets? Not sure. The basic back pocket you see on current 501's is done on a pocket robot, takes about 10 seconds compared with hidden's at anywhere from 4-5 minutes..thats a guess. There's no way around it, they have to be hand done. Those pocket robot's are pretty cool though, they fold, place, sew around...bartack, sew back around and bartack superfast. It's defintely some engineering genius. My sisier in law's dad is Japanese and he is one of those enginners that makes custom stuff for factories to ease/speed up production. My bro told me he recently made some machine to put the lids on pot noodles faster. Will have to have a good yarn to him next time he comes over for a holiday, no doubt he's done some work with garment factories.

I too think it is good for a lot of people to be into good craftsmanship and buying hand crafted items. I do hope people stick with it and out last the fad. I know some people are into the exclusivity of this stuff, but I wish it became less exclusive so that the price would come down, but as long as there is some bunch of people buying up all the good denim the price will go up. Only when manufacturers start producing nice denim/clothing en masse will the price start to fall. The problem is that the infrastructure is set up to build cheap crap and until that infrastructure swings back the other way will prices start coming down. I believe that LVC type jeans (47, 55) could be made a lot cheaper if they were mass produced.

[Tarmac]

In general it is hard to justify via cost alone. If you do it, you are pretty good at lying to yourself. Not only is it expensive to buy nicer clothing, you also waste a lot of time doing it. Only the ultra-rich are able to buy top quality without wasting a lot of time - they go to Wilkes Bashford, Paul Stuart, or Self Edge and pick what they want, pay full retail, and don't think about it again.

There is no way a pair of iron hearts lasts longer than 6 pairs of $50 jeans. But, I bought iron hearts without hesitation, I certainly like them.

What I find impressive is people that kind of sense good quality/value without putting too much effort into it. Like those old grandpas wearing redline Levis. Or working guys who just happen to own RM Williams.

[rnrswitch]

NOoooo! Don't talk to them man they will take over Ande Whall jeans with their automatic back pocket machines.

Seriously, though, I did not mean that the jeans should be machine manufactured or even that they would cost the same price as the basic 501 today. But if production got the process down to a science the LVC jeans could be made efficiently by hand and for a bit cheaper. It is the fact that they are aiming at a niche market that makes the price so high... at least that is what i think. I haven't done much research. Anyways, hats off to the folks that do it by hand. Such as yourself.

[andewhall]

Hey Switch. Yeah I agree the process could be made much quicker and on a larger scale if they wanted, but yeah as you say it's a niche market and if all 501's were sweet selvage 47's 99.9% of the people wouldn't know what was up with their jeans aways. Wouldn't that be cool though, every joe in the wold wearing really good jeans.......fade city, denim rubbernecking. What trade/job would have the best worn out pairs?

[Pi-tol]

Yeah the moment I have to line up for some jeans, Im done, it back to sweatpants! Its not the Jean companies that ruin shit, but the folks who freakin line up over night or camp out for items that shit up any hobby.

[fang]

hypedenim? denimbeasts?

[Hendodo]

alright guys. i had a heated argument w/ my dad about spending 300 dollars on ONE pair of jeans. He was getting mad that i had crotch rips, etc. and said " my kirkland brand jeans that have been worn for 3 years are made with the same/if not better quality than your jeans. I have no rips in them, and i wash weekly. the wash isnt tough on my jeans". I then tried to go into detail about mexicans and their sweatshops used by other brands. he retorted "if we dont buy jeans from them, they wont have any jobs. then they'll be on the street. how social conscious is that?" then went on and asked me if i know FOR SURE the japanese companies ( in my case, flathead) have good working conditions/wages for their people. I told him i didnt know for sure... Then I explained it was also about craftsmanship. He gave me that one, but thats about it.

so you guys wanna help me out with this one??

thanks .

[eczerwonka]

... so you guys wanna help me out with this one??

thanks .

Kid... you're 16. WTF you need $300 jeans for?

Your old man won't listen. Mine didn't when I was 16, and if I had 16 yr old I wouldn't listen either.

Like you NEED $300 jeans, lol.

Explain 21oz denim to him... at least 19 - 24 oz denim is worth the cost and has a use.

[Paul T]

One industyr figure told me recently you're as likely to encounter sweatshops in Italy or LA than you are in Mexico or China. Any company that sources from low-wage economies generally have to undertake audits and inspect factories. But if the sewing is done in a developed economy, they don't bother.

Does that help, hendodo??

[RRLselvageDenim]

Pretty thoughtful thread.

[Hendodo]

Kid... you're 16. WTF you need $300 jeans for?

Your old man won't listen. Mine didn't when I was 16, and if I had 16 yr old I wouldn't listen either.

Like you NEED $300 jeans, lol.

Explain 21oz denim to him... at least 19 - 24 oz denim is worth the cost and has a use.

haha. it shouldn't matter to him as i buy my own things anyways ( 5 siblings concept). he just claims his Costco jeans can last as long/longer than my jeans can... so hypothetically, if he wore and treated a pair of Flat heads like his costco ones, what would happen?? from what i know, the flathead ones will look better , and retain more indigo.. but what about the wear on the jeans. do the jeans have the same duribility??

paul, that kinda helps, but do we know for sure that these companies dont use sweatshop laborors??

ezcerwonka, my dad still argues that 300 is too much to pay for any jean, and that his costco ones will last almost, if not the same amount of time as a 21 oz....

thanks guys

we iz having fun on dis thread

[Osmosis Jones]

haha. it shouldn't matter to him as i buy my own things anyways ( 5 siblings concept). he just claims his Costco jeans can last as long/longer than my jeans can... so hypothetically, if he wore and treated a pair of Flat heads like his costco ones, what would happen?? from what i know, the flathead ones will look better , and retain more indigo.. but what about the wear on the jeans. do the jeans have the same duribility??

paul, that kinda helps, but do we know for sure that these companies dont use sweatshop laborors??

ezcerwonka, my dad still argues that 300 is too much to pay for any jean, and that his costco ones will last almost, if not the same amount of time as a 21 oz....

thanks guys

we iz having fun on dis thread

my dad is a pretty well dressed. he's been rocking sperry topsiders and clark's deserts since the beginning of time. no "dad jeans" here either. pretty sure he has diors...

[eczerwonka]

ezcerwonka, my dad still argues that 300 is too much to pay for any jean, and that his costco ones will last almost, if not the same amount of time as a 21 oz....

thanks guys

we iz having fun on dis thread

lol man you're better than most then if you pay your own way, pretty impressive. I have a lot of pics of my pop wearing selvage in the 50 s so I'm sure mine would get the concept but never in a million years would he understand paying that much good luck convincing him !

[dralfonzo]

I agree with that, look at some of the factories in the garment district in LA. Shit don't look pretty, but I still have to try to put my money somewhere I think it will do the worker better and unfortunately chinese factories and many factories in 2nd and 3rd world countries are not providing for their workers.

Ohh but I digress, enough of that.

It seems like people use the whole, "it will last a lifetime and in the long run it is cheeper" argument simply to justify some of the crazy price tags on some of this stuff.

Also, on the whole "collecting" thing. I don't mind people collecting stuff or picking up stuff at the thrift store just to have. It is mostly harmless within reason, but has anyone looked at the selfedge thread lately? It just looks like one big beasting frenzy where everybody has "got to have it." I have to cop that shit man. I can't wait until people are lined up around the corner of selfedge waiting all night for the release of SExFHxIHxSCxMFSCx316x yada yada yada.

yeah i agree with you that there is this sort of collab frenzy hype surrounding the denim companies at at the moment - in some ways even this forum is party responsible for that with the contest jeans etc, but I dont nessecarily see those as a bad thing. I think what makes it tricky is that if you look at current trends, there are many 'heritage' companies that are doing very well at the moment, and there is a big thing about Made in England or Made in USA, and if you look on many of the blogs that proclaimed themselves 'streetware' blogs 1.5/2 years ago, now they are all reporting on the latest filson ,EG, woolen mills, rl whatever pieces that they wouldnt have shown any interest in a few years back. just look at Daves Quality Meats new collection. They are a streetware brand through and through (zoo york links) but there new collection looks like fucking Barbour meets J Crew or something.

Anyway, I think this whole 'heritage' movement that is very trendy at the moment has seemed to encompassed the whole denim scene, which has for a long time had been dominated by these Japanese brands which are obviously renowned for their high quality production, and that is why there is a surge in popularity and interest in denim etc at the moment. It would be interesting to see how it stands the test of time and who is still here in a few years.

anyways enough ranting. im drunk,

[thatslapz]

I have to agree with that fact that a pair of $300 jeans (designer or selvage/raw/whatever) are not going to outlast their equivalent in cheap Levi's. Even my $30 STF's were as durable as my Flatheads (up to 8 months at least). And I have to admit I was a little disappointed my Flatheads needed a crotch repair.

But the thing is, since I've gotten into this style, my spending in other categories has dropped. I used to spend money on video games, only to play them for a few weeks. Or I would always be looking for the next electronic thing I "needed." Now the only two things I spend money on are my car and denim/clothes. My discretionary income and spending are unchanged. And really, the money I have left after paying all my bills/rent and contributing to my retirement account is "guilt free" so I can use it however I choose.

And for the whole sweatshops thing, I would take a look at Fugitive Denim

http://www.amazon.com/Fugitive-Denim-Moving-People-Borderless/dp/0393335429/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257559036&sr=8-1

She actually interviews a garment worker in a factory (cambodia I think). She also looks at the whole "organic" cotton thing and points out that organic cotton may not be any better for the environment, or the growers/laborers than regular cotton.

Even if Japanese companies do pay their workers higher wages and ensure better working conditions, what about the workers where they source their materials from? What about the cotton pickers/sorters with arthritic pain and respiratory disease? Sure, the Japanese denim companies may be more socially/environmentally conscious because they make sure at least one stage of production is socially responsible, but again, what about everything that happens to the cotton before they get it?

[kiya]

This thread is interesting, keep it going..

I'd like to quickly correct a few of you that are implying that these Japanese denim brands that we love are now being consumed with collaborations.

This is completely untrue, they've been doing collabs with denim stores for over ten years, some for nearly 20 years.

Take5 has been doing collabs and selling them over extremely hyped out fans for over ten years now, what Self Edge is doing is just doing it for the western world.

In my eyes Benny (Take5) has the best denim store in the world with a passion that i can feel and hear when i hang out with him, i will never deny that i don't look at what he's done and see it as a personal inspiration for me and what i do.

Edit: Also to those that pointed out that i also own another store that sells sneakers and streetwear.. i am not and have never really been into that culture (outside of having close friends that are deeply involved with stores and lines), i opened that store purely as a project with a friend, i didn't know the difference between a Dunk and a AF1 when i opened Turf.

[Reignman]

A sports or luxury car has very little more to offer in terms of practical use than a sub $20k car for many times the price of any cheap POS. How much do you need a much stronger engine, etc when you're driving at the speed limit. At the end of the day, a cheap car will take you to the same places as an expensive one, unless you're racing them or something.

The same thing can be said if jeans. Sure, all these heavier weight jeans can be more durable, but do we really need the extra durability in everyday life? I think it's kind of hard to justify buying jeans based in practicality, but there really is no need to justify peoples buying behaviour in the first place. Buyer behaviour is irrational so some people who say you're paying too much for your jeans are probably overvaluing other stuff as well.

If you want it and can afford it, just wear it and don't worry about justifying your purchase

[arem]

FWIW, I don't have any problem with people like Kiya/SE, Gordon/BiG etc. They have been into this stuff for many years, obviously have a lot of love and passion for what they are doing, and they are putting it to use to further the art and expose the things they think are cool to a wider audience who has an appreciation for it. And I doubt that these smaller companies are making these products with dollar signs in their eyes the way Nike does with their "limited editions". The only problem I have is with the way these products are consumed by a group of people (and I don't exclude myself) who are getting swept up in the excitement of discovering these things and maybe using less discretion and thought about what they buy.

It's your money and more power to you if you find enough value in that $1000 Mr. Freedom jacket to justify the cost, but I think that somewhere not too far down the line people really are going to look at their closets and realize they have become the Sportsfreak of retro-nostalgic American gear.

I suppose the big difference is that there have been people collecting this stuff for many years, but all of these new companies are rushing in to fill this demand, and I think it's going to shake out similarly to the way there were suddenly dozens of streetwear companies after the sneaker boom, an 90% of them have gone under or moved on to other things already. Hopefully these new boutiques and designers opening up shop are better managed to handle things when the wave crests, because it's coming.

[rnrswitch]

I have to agree with that fact that a pair of $300 jeans (designer or selvage/raw/whatever) are not going to outlast their equivalent in cheap Levi's. Even my $30 STF's were as durable as my Flatheads (up to 8 months at least). And I have to admit I was a little disappointed my Flatheads needed a crotch repair.

But the thing is, since I've gotten into this style, my spending in other categories has dropped. I used to spend money on video games, only to play them for a few weeks. Or I would always be looking for the next electronic thing I "needed." Now the only two things I spend money on are my car and denim/clothes. My discretionary income and spending are unchanged. And really, the money I have left after paying all my bills/rent and contributing to my retirement account is "guilt free" so I can use it however I choose.

And for the whole sweatshops thing, I would take a look at Fugitive Denim

http://www.amazon.com/Fugitive-Denim-Moving-People-Borderless/dp/0393335429/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257559036&sr=8-1

She actually interviews a garment worker in a factory (cambodia I think). She also looks at the whole "organic" cotton thing and points out that organic cotton may not be any better for the environment, or the growers/laborers than regular cotton.

Even if Japanese companies do pay their workers higher wages and ensure better working conditions, what about the workers where they source their materials from? What about the cotton pickers/sorters with arthritic pain and respiratory disease? Sure, the Japanese denim companies may be more socially/environmentally conscious because they make sure at least one stage of production is socially responsible, but again, what about everything that happens to the cotton before they get it?

This has been covered before and I know I have said this before, but just because at some point some slave labor was used in the process does not mean that we should use slave labor for the whole process. I don't know the working conditions of every factory in every country in the world, but I can make a reasonable bet on the countries that have better working conditions/pay. Just because I cannot prove that MIJ or Made in USA stuff was made sweatshop free for all my clothes, does not mean that I should throw out my sense of ethics and just say fuck it. I have no clue about working conditions so I should just go and buy jeans from any source possible.

I don't trust any author who is willing to interview one cambodian worker who says the factory is the best place in the world, when there are plenty of instances where workers have voiced their opposition to factory conditions.

I met a Mexican immigrant who worked in Ensinada at a Fender factory. He jumped ship to the States to work in the fields picking strawberries because it paid better and was better working conditions. He was suppose to bring his family here this summer, but I don't know if that panned out. I sure hope it did.

[rnrswitch]

This thread is interesting, keep it going..

I'd like to quickly correct a few of you that are implying that these Japanese denim brands that we love are now being consumed with collaborations.

This is completely untrue, they've been doing collabs with denim stores for over ten years, some for nearly 20 years.

Take5 has been doing collabs and selling them over extremely hyped out fans for over ten years now, what Self Edge is doing is just doing it for the western world.

In my eyes Benny (Take5) has the best denim store in the world with a passion that i can feel and hear when i hang out with him, i will never deny that i don't look at what he's done and see it as a personal inspiration for me and what i do.

Edit: Also to those that pointed out that i also own another store that sells sneakers and streetwear.. i am not and have never really been into that culture (outside of having close friends that are deeply involved with stores and lines), i opened that store purely as a project with a friend, i didn't know the difference between a Dunk and a AF1 when i opened Turf.

I am not trying to say that these denim companies are all of the sudden consumed with collaborations, nor am I against collaborations, but what I am against is people beasting over it like it is crack.

I think Kiyas store (never been there) and BIG are great. They affiliate more people with nice clothing which is good, but I don't like the hype involved with much of this stuff.

[Pi-tol]

End result, if you like nice shit, you gots to pay up! lol Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[FACE]

No jean @ Selfedge or BiG should cost what is charged. but it's worth? thats all decided by us, that demand brings up that price. along w/ shipping/production cost/time and other overhead. if someone's gonna pay for it, why not charge it?

and btw ECZERWONKA, its good to see another Orlando poster...that is if your in Orlando, FL haha

lol man you're better than most then if you pay your own way, pretty impressive. I have a lot of pics of my pop wearing selvage in the 50 s so I'm sure mine would get the concept but never in a million years would he understand paying that much good luck convincing him !

[DrMoBueno]

^i disagree with this.

i don't know what their margins are, but the cost of customs and shipping must be large. it's not like buying one pair of samurai through a proxy.

[eczerwonka]

AS much as I hate to, I have to disagree as well FACE, even if you're a neighbor BTW

If the costs were lower the quality would suffer and then you may as well just buy selvage at the Gap or UO. I can understand the attention to detail and the limited number of pieces drive costs up and for me it's all envy really. I'd seen the japanese sites while looking for japanese motorcycle parts long before I discovered this place and just lost it because of the prices of everything, but then I found this site and lurked for a while and eventually it got to the point where if I saw jeans for $150 I would wonder why they were so cheap... lol.

It's kind of like saying that NO ballplayer is worth 30 million a year and that's why tickets are so high yet people still pay for tickets because the product is still worth it to some people.

I could never pay retail for the stuff, but that's because I have little disposable income, but if I did (or wasn't married)... I'd be like Markmont 2.0 But still... $300 for a denim shirt? I'm just mad the wife would neuter me in my sleep if I bought one.

[aso2004]

On the deni9mfront, it was my old man who got me into this mess.

He bought his jeans in a mum and po p store where the staff were really kind and had their knoledge in place. I got my first 501's when I was 16 and never looked back since. First one was washed but then the owner bought a shipment of raw levi's made in the USA...

He explained the shrink to fit system to me and showed me Lee repro's...

Still thank him till this day.

I think that the money i spend on denim is a good one. You spent what you want to miss

[po_boy_fuuma_hatesbargerz]

Hmmm.I just realized, I never paid retail for any jeans I bought, save for my first pair of APCs.

With supermarket and the internet, I don't see any reason to beast over the latest collabs, seeing that it's a given that they'll pop up on the 'permarket within a month, or ebay in a few months.

[Dr_Heech]

The cost of the original vintage lifestyle.

For Me, I got really into vintage denim back in the eighties when denim (Original stuff) started to become collectable, about 1985. Then there was a huge surge in prices around 1989, fuelled by the interest of Japanese consumers, which took a pair of 1950's 501XX's from £25 to £200 ! After a while it got ridiculous. I remember seeing some pairs I wore, which I paid £15-25 for, sell for £350 up!

Then by 1992, you just couldnt find the stuff, especially anything that would fit. And I only had one vintage pair left. ( Probably spent £1000 max in ten years of collecting original denim items).

So when Levi's Vintage Clothing was introduced in 1996, it was a godsend. Even though the original pricetag was £200 for a pair of repro 501's, at least (a), You could get a pair to fit (, You could buy them new with tags and they had a variety of models.

I now have a dozen pairs which will easily see me throughout my entire life.

Probably spent £5000 on Lvc/Lee jeans/ jackets in the last ten years alone, yet I wear a pair of £25 value boots !

I dont need to justify why I spend so much on denim, as it's like my oxygen.

[thedoad]

This might be the best thread I've read on this board in my year plus lurking. Its engaging and very interesting, and while it clearly it's 100% about Denim, it's also about so much more. Keep it up. It's nice hearing from those informed about various issues relating to the production on jeans/clothes.

Though not jeans related directly, I can vouch for the shitty Los Angeles "Workshop" conditions and the overall fucked up nature of high end clothing. One of my best friends is a printer and for a while worked designing really high end tshirts for mostly women at high end boutiques. He got paid shit and the equipment/ practices there were outrageous, especially when he would walk down Melrose and see his shit in a fly by night storefront selling for hundreds, Just screen printed shit on an american apparel T. On the flipside, My GF works for a large high end womens designer here in LA and from what she says people are treated excellent. Ive been to the factory and its pretty awesome. Still the pay/retail ratio is incredibly high, especially since they are not really using any sort of limited/low run materials.

Like I said before. People Buy shit. Thats all there is to it. Supply and demand. I have always been a levis guy, and then I got some nudies, then got a great deal here for some KMW which I love, but I would be lying If I said i did not have to justify that purchase to myself somehow even though it was half off retail.