Superfashion randoms thoughts

[conqueror]

fuck, i'll just play some ysl montage i found.

[Servo2000]

just picked up this j.sabatino jacket ive been looking to get for a minute to get my skinhead on - what do you guys think? feels a little unusual but it's definitely a slightly more relaxed bomber than I'm used to and maybe a bit long

excuse my rumpled and weird fred perry i just pulled it out of the bottom of my suitcase where its been for like two days

[redX]

why would you want to look like a skinhead?

seriously?

[boy better know]

^

ufKb5M9Uj4E

[redX]

oh yeah wait just because there are black skinheads that makes being a skinhead ok...

what the fuck

[syed]

I remember when the Dr Martens with red laces were released...most people saw them as hot sh*t. My father and people of his generation however remembered skinheads that kicked in the heads of immigrants in the poorer parts of London. Rocking red to show the blood they spilt.

That being said I don't think there is anything racist or negative with the fashion take on the skinhead aesthetic. It is now so stylized.

Oh, and I wear DMs (although not with red laces).

[High Monika]

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Edited April 22, 2015 by Hang the DJ

[american_hearts]

oh yeah wait just because there are black skinheads that makes being a skinhead ok...

what the fuck

wow. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[redX]

whenever the news in germany is talking about racism and how some poor dude or family got beaten within an inch of their life, it's always skinheads. they make immigrants and forreigners the target of their hate, aggression and their own problems.

how am i supposed to be tolerant of that? i've yet to see a skinhead plead tolerance and acceptance

and it is that dresscode that forms their identity and group. it doesn't matter whether there were former peacful skinsheads. you won't see anyone waving a swastika around expecting everyone to immediately realize that it's not a symbol of the nazis but a symbol of the sun rooted in hindu tradition and religion

the skinheads are a militant right wing group that propagates intolerance and nationalism

[redX]

but this is quickly turning into a politics discussion, so i won't comment on this any further.

servo should dress the way he wants. imo it is wrong to look like a nazi just for fashions sake

[filth]

so christophe decarnin left balmain...

[High Monika]

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Edited April 22, 2015 by Hang the DJ

[redX]

i think we're all happy now

[broneck]

I don't think he's being stupid. I think people are being way too quick to judge his argument. The point about the swastika is fairly valid. skinhead culture isn't just localized to Germany, it's broadly recognized around the world thanks to the place it's taken in pop culture (American history x, romper stomper, etc etc)...I'd say 90% of north America recognizes skinheads as being neo-Nazi before anything else. Dismissing red's argument as being stupid or having a fundamental lack of understanding is showing your own ignorance - and I'm saying this to people who I'd generally side with on here.

(keep the jacket tho, servo)

[aoi]

The use of the word "skinhead" in the media is more often than not being misused as an equivalent to neo-nazi. Good thing traditional skins have worked hard to bring back the true meaning of the word. Taking back the symbols as it were.

The Nazis stole a whole bunch of symbols and aesthetics from other cultures, and I think it is only right that those try to bring back their true meaning. Ie. the Nordic runes, the swastika etc.

Volkswagen Beetle was a symbol of the Nazis at one point (rightfully so, they didn't steal that), but even the Beetle have freed itself entirely of these implications - mainly due to their use by the hippies .

[High Monika]

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Edited April 22, 2015 by Hang the DJ

[Manx]

The use of the word "skinhead" in the media is more often than not being misused as an equivalent to neo-nazi. Good thing traditional skins have worked hard to bring back the true meaning of the word. Taking back the symbols as it were.

The Nazis stole a whole bunch of symbols and aesthetics from other cultures, and I think it is only right that those try to bring back their true meaning. Ie. the Nordic runes, the swastika etc.

Volkswagen Beetle was a symbol of the Nazis at one point (rightfully so, they didn't steal that), but even the Beetle have freed itself entirely of these implications - mainly due to their use by the hippies .

This is commonly stated but isn't actually true, aside from a few things here and there from Rome with which both cultures exchanged influence...

Well, the Germanic and Nordic imagery used by the Nazis might be found in other cultures, but within the context they're very, very Germanic. One swastika over here doesn't have to be the same swastika over there. I have an entire pre-nazi book, original, on the swastika. http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/sw/

It's unfortunate that the Nazi's had such killer uniforms, weapons, vehicles, and aesthetics while doing such awful things - but there's no reason to fight for the legitimacy of ancient imagery that never lost its legitimacy to start with. What people really need to start doing is being more ambitious about studying ancient Germanic civilizations and migrations. Even that was a taboo pursuit for some time.

If the skinhead culture had been less receptive of the National Front and to racism in general when it started actively recruiting skinheads in the 70's, then maybe the media wouldn't have had yet another vehicle to paint white people evil. The skinheads are a very unintellectual subculture of people to begin with so it's no surprise and to be honest, aside from an excellent rough-but-clean aesthetic, it's not exactly the valiant battle for legitimacy that a lot of them say it is. They're the only ones singing their praises in that right. I know this because I've known many skinheads. All idiots.

[High Monika]

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Edited April 22, 2015 by Hang the DJ

[aoi]

Well, the Germanic and Nordic imagery used by the Nazis might be found in other cultures, but within the context they're very, very Germanic.

That was kinda my point, they weaved it so well together all the sum of it's part became a coherent whole. I'm saying they (runes, eagle, iron cross, swastika etc.) don't have to be symbols of nazism - just because they used them. And I think it is appropriate to not let them have those symbols for all eternity - just because they managed to create a complete aesthetic using them. Not forgetting the atrocities.

[Manx]

Thank Hugo Boss for the lovely uniforms.*

I can't dispute your experience with skins. I can only say the ones I've known never fought for legitimacy or their pride as skins. They just like the subculture, the music, and the dress. It would be a stretch to say none were idiots, but on the whole they were normal or intelligent. But people are idiots everywhere.

*I don't know if they actually designed the uniform but people say they did.

And that's exactly what I mean. I've heard a lot of bullshit stories from sharps stating that they "drove the nazis" out of my area. I know a lot that shudder when people start telling "skinhead" stories. I ALSO saw them hit the gas when a group of Hammerskins showed up looking big mean and burley, to one of their shows.

I like skinhead style a lot. I like a rougher but clean cut look with a slimmer silhouette.

Hugo Boss was a manufacturing firm at the time. They did manufacture Nazi uniforms. I'm not totally sure who designed the SS uniforms. Whoever did wins the prize.

[Manx]

just picked up this j.sabatino jacket ive been looking to get for a minute to get my skinhead on - what do you guys think? feels a little unusual but it's definitely a slightly more relaxed bomber than I'm used to and maybe a bit long

excuse my rumpled and weird fred perry i just pulled it out of the bottom of my suitcase where its been for like two days

It's squaring off your shoulders disproportionately but only slightly. It will probably tone down with wear as this is most likely a fresh jacket, right? This kind of small detail always drives me nuts with my own shit and I've been desperate to find a killer bomber. Does it have a lot of insulation? I like the puffyness in the back.

[Servo2000]

It's pretty quilted, yeah. I'm taking it to a tailor at some point to have epaulets removed. Nothing to be down about the shoulders, unfortunately, but I may see if I can also have the arm holes raise slightly which might trim up the silhouette slightly and compensate but overall I'm liking it I think.

On the discussion: it's a good an perfectly valid one. For me, the thing that has always interested me about clothing is pieces as codes and symbols and how they become a matrix of relations between history, perception and aesthetics. The way I dress is more-or-less an intersection between references to subcultures and historical garments (i.e. MA1s and skins / mods / so on) to maintain some ambiguous quality of authenticity and contemporary fashion that re-works those histories in a new way that expresses the multiplicity of identities inherent in them (i.e. Patrik Ervell / Raf Simons). You'll notice here that I'm specific in which items I select - as someone mentioned earlier, I'm not wearing red shoelaces in my boots for instance. I'm not wearing a skinhead costume - the only direct 'period' piece would be the Fred Perry.

I think this argument would be more interesting (and is something I've mentioned before) when pointed at Superdenim and these brands and people that are essentially cosplaying as romanticized early americans. The entire idea of these brands is re-creating the time period down to details, fabrics, etc... What historical offenses are being reborn here? I think more bizarre and vital ones than those being borrowed from complex institutions like 'skinheads.'

[Desi]

Hugo Boss was a manufacturing firm at the time. They did manufacture Nazi uniforms. I'm not totally sure who designed the SS uniforms. Whoever did wins the prize.

I always thought Boss focused mainly on the Hilter Youth stuff? Makes me remember when 10 Men had a write up about German WWI and WWII fashion and design, one of favorites actually. I still think the recent Red Baron film had great steez (no one ehugged me in the film steez thread).

[mpcec]

Nice point Servo. A discussion on the romanticization of repro brands has played out in certain threads on here and the other SF but very minimally, this thread has bits of interesting discussion but a lot of it wasn't expanded on.

I'll just say briefly that I think that people unfairly or inaccurately state that people buy into a workwear/americana/repro brands out of a desire for authenticity and a connection to a different period. Not necessarily saying you, but things I've read here and there on blogs or in the Times seem to make this correlation. I think it would be more accurate to say that most people merely enjoy the aesthetic and find it fairly accessible.

While there are definitely exceptions to this, I just think a purely aesthetics based appreciation of the style is under represented.

[Servo2000]

Their intent is not really relevant to the point I was making. What matters is that they are wearing it and perpetuating the aesthetic produced by makers whose goal is to replicate the originals as close as possible. Replicas - appropriations from the past.

Using the red boot straps as an example again if I was wearing them and people said 'Servo, that's wrong it has a history of regressive, conservative racial history and violence' I couldn't reasonably argue, 'Yeah, but I just wear them because I enjoy the aesthetic.' In a culture of images we are culpable for those we perpetuate.

[evisu 2000]

collar

[Manx]

Like anything I think that the (as stated above) "romantic" costume play as far as american "trad" wear and aesthetics only reflects some kind of superficial escapism when it moves too far to either side of the law of the hyphen. Charles Fort's Law of the Hyphen is the idea "that much of reality lies in an intermediate, Excluded Middle realm of existence."

When the law is violated, concepts like "quality" and a return to "more simple, durable" standards are used as an excuse to legitimize their cosplay fantasies and a desire to indulge in a somewhat pre-developed and total aesthetic. What started as a return to quality and a certain admiration for aesthetics was adopted, inevitably, by escapists and turned into a subcultural costume play. This happens with everything, including skinheads, crusts, liberals, and conservatives, and shouldn't demerit the positive and very legitimate aspects of concept they're escaping into (perhaps not to reflect, perhaps to make things easier and create a sense of reflection itself).

What would be worse is to react directly against the trend of dogmatics (as annoying as they sometimes are) by trying to push a more "experimental" and therefor "futuristic" aesthetic that simply becomes disposable and irrelevant once the potato cools.

[Servo2000]

Experimental and futuristic works are not inherently doomed to become disposable but certainly some do, as do certain costumes and subcultures so I'm not sure I understand your point here. If you're arguing against being a reactionary then that I can understand but I would posit that neither designer I mentioned (especially not Ervell) are. If I had said Gareth Pugh I would understand but Raf and Ervell are both working in a patently contemporary mode using gestures and techniques that are pulled more from the world of contemporary art than from theater like Pugh.

[Manx]

Experimental and futuristic works are not inherently doomed to become disposable but certainly some do, as do certain costumes and subcultures so I'm not sure I understand your point here. If you're arguing against being a reactionary then that I can understand but I would posit that neither designer I mentioned (especially not Ervell) are. If I had said Gareth Pugh I would understand but Raf and Ervell are both working in a patently contemporary mode using gestures and techniques that are pulled more from the world of contemporary art than from theater like Pugh.

Nah. I wasn't addressing Ervell or any designer you mentioned in any way at all. I was really just going down my own road based on a few of the things brought up here. Very much a "random thought" type post.

I wasn't shitting on futurism or progressive ideas or experimentation as a whole at all. I didn't intend for it to seem that way. I wouldn't call using theatrical fantasy-crap as your main inspiration reactionary in any way, either. Though, I do feel that it is very commonly used as a vehicle to react against widespread trend or convention - their end products usually being twice as shallow as the trends reacted against.

I was talking about a completely separate concept where someone reacts directly against something to the point where the reactionary element becomes the dominant factor in the creative process. Futurism and experimentation become a guise for not wanting to seem like a reactionary byproduct. The end product is meaningless and filled with fluffy hot air.

It's kind of like how some of the modern composers failed at expressing anything and their work was shallow and nearsighted. Their "intellectualism" caused them to react against aesthetics they saw as conventional and therefor wrong and their work became defined by reactionary sentiment instead of personal expression or reflection upon anything at all. Many of their works ended up far from free spirited or reflective in their "eccentricity." They were too dogmatic that they lost sight of reality and truth. Their fantasies became boring and tedious over time. It might be that a fantasy or some "wild" vision might only be relevant if it is anchored to some kind of conventional truth. That doesn't sit well for people who consider themselves visionary dreamers. Especially those "sick and tired" of this or that.

My point is that the "trad" thing is healthy when it is anchored in fact. It has become carried away by cosplay and a dogmatic standard of authenticity and reproduction - but that shouldn't taint the more positive aspects of the throwback - not that you said that it would. I was simply voicing my own opinion and going down my own road on people who "can't stand it any more" and maybe try too hard to be different.

You stated:

"to maintain some ambiguous quality of authenticity and contemporary fashion that re-works those histories in a new way that expresses the multiplicity of identities inherent in them (i.e. Patrik Ervell / Raf Simons)"

And this is what I mean. Taking what is functional and relevant about the past and present and using them as a standard and foundation for creative thinking. Functionality seems to be a major aspect because the frill factor is pretty low IMO. It is no new idea and sounds cliche but few pull it off honestly. Ervell is actually my favorite designer because he shows a degree of restraint, his stuff feels masculine (at least to me) and is progressive and almost solely because it doesn't feel reactionary at all.

I think for the most party the gimmicky-ness is actually starting to die down. This is a thing of the past (pun intended):

You're not train hopping your way through the depression sir, but I bet your boots are of the highest quality. It looks like an animated period piece. It's too calculated to be "free spirited" and fun, and I'm sure everything is very well made.

I once knew a guy who backpacked throughout the majority of eastern europe. He said he was at a bar and noticed some greasers who looked really, really good. Everything looked custom. He went outside to smoke a cigarette and noticed that the pack of them all hopped on cheap mopeds and sped off.

[CMYK]

I am kinda wanting to see meeks cutoff sounds pretty good....