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Abe at outlier going "oh arc'teryx uses cool fabrics but they don't use schoeller like us" is fucking hilarious. Arc'teryx's yearly textile r&d alone is probably ten times outlier's entire turnover.

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Thats BS by the way (at least in the EU). Mark up or regular brands is 2x - 2.2x, for the higher end stuff you're looking at 2.2x - 2.5x. 2.7x is ridiculous. Acronym is not compromising on fabric, hell they put 2x or more R&D in their stuff then Outlier and you know what the mark up for that stuff is? Yeah far below 2.7x.

If their stuff is being marked up by retailers with 2.7x they should really look for new ones because they are being f'd with.

Also don't forget that Veilance has the Arc'Teryx desings, history and production facilities at their disposal and they can buy higher volume (thus cheaper) then Outlier can as a small brand. There is no reason for them to use 'cheaper' fabrics except that they probably did the research and concluded that the advantages on paper don't weigh up to the extra dollars you pay as in real life it's hardly noticeable.

 

On the contrary, to take advance of purchasing in volume, the Veilance line has to use the same cheaper fabrics as the Arc'Teryx main line. The Arc'Teryx main line isn't sold at the higher prices of Outlier or Acronym (Acronym also uses more expensive fabrics than Veilance...)

 

 

Abe at outlier going "oh arc'teryx uses cool fabrics but they don't use schoeller like us" is fucking hilarious. Arc'teryx's yearly textile r&d alone is probably ten times outlier's entire turnover.

 

Read Abe's comments in context:

 

As for getting compared to Veilance it's an honor. I love what Conroy is doing over there and the production they can do in their factory is amazing. As for their pricing, quite honestly I think it's overpriced, but it's not really their fault. Like all really high end brands the retailers are marking things up about 2.7x. (as opposed to just 2x in outdoor). That really limits the fabrics they can use. Obviously they are using pretty solid quality stuff, but you never see them using Schoeller doubleweaves like we do.

 

So yeah when their stuff is on sale it should be about the same price as ours, they spend more on production (I'm guessing) and we spend more on fabrics and once the retailer discounts it a bit they should hit around the same spot as our stuff.

 

Fuck I wish we had access to the veilance factory but it's owned by arc'teryx for their use only. We do use a factory that our friend at Mission Workshop use too, and it's awesome, but the arc'teryx in house stuff is half a step beyond... The only thing we can take solace in is that we can use much more expensive fabrics than they are authorized too!

No need for fanboy wars between these two great brands.

Back on topic, I'm looking forward to seeing the new collars and hoods in person. That was my biggest problem with the previous collections and the new season looks promising.

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On the contrary, to take advance of purchasing in volume, the Veilance line has to use the same cheaper fabrics as the Arc'Teryx main line. .

This is factually incorrect. While there are shared fabrics between the two, each veilance season sees textiles unique to the line.

I like outlier as much as anyone, but the remarks about fabric selection are ignorant in context and without.

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This is factually incorrect. While there are shared fabrics between the two, each veilance season sees textiles unique to the line.

I like outlier as much as anyone, but the remarks about fabric selection are ignorant in context and without.

 

... <_<

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On the contrary, to take advance of purchasing in volume, the Veilance line has to use the same cheaper fabrics as the Arc'Teryx main line. The Arc'Teryx main line isn't sold at the higher prices of Outlier or Acronym (Acronym also uses more expensive fabrics than Veilance...)

 

 

 

Read Abe's comments in context:

 

 

No need for fanboy wars between these two great brands.

Back on topic, I'm looking forward to seeing the new collars and hoods in person. That was my biggest problem with the previous collections and the new season looks promising.

 

It's about Abe essentially saying they are using inferior fabrics. The shared fabrics between mainline and veilance gives a pricing advantage and even if they would buy ''shoeller doubleweaves'' only for veilance then their connections and amount of produced products is still higher as Outlier (as veilance does 6 coats in the same fabric in a season and outlier 1..) thus cheaper.

He is also saying that they can use much more expensive fabrics then veilance can...You think Gore is cheap with all that licensing?! They just did their research and concluded that in real life the more expensive fabrics Abe is talking about don't have a significant advantage over the ''cheaper'' ones (whichever that may be...).  

 

When reading Abe's full post the point still stands on the pricing. He says it's overpriced because retailers are putting veilance and other high-end brands at 2.7x mark up. Thats is just not true.

 

I'm trying to have a healthy discussion about the fabrics and pricing, it's not a fanboy comment or start of a flamewar.

Abe is just plain wrong on a few points and saying things like "they use cheap fabrics" and "the markup is 2.7x" really comes across as ignorant and like he's trying to down-talk the competition.

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Abe is just plain wrong on a few points and saying things like "they use cheap fabrics" and "the markup is 2.7x" really comes across as ignorant and like he's trying to down-talk the competition.

 

"cheap fabrics" is not the point, it is about the most expensive ones. 

It seems reasonable to say that it is not interesting for arcteryx to use top notch schoeller products in the veilance line, simply because it is not profitable and maybe regarding the gore-tex licensing.

 

 

Veilance designer Conroy Nachtigall even said that about its favorite fabric: (full story here http://032c.com/2011/archetype/)

 

 

 My favorite material is the Schoeller ­Ny­­lon Face, even though we don’t use it much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Gore and Shoeller is alright together I believe, acronym is doing that combo as well.

The rumor/public secret goes that the Gore licensing doesn't/didn't allow Ventile I believe. But in what way that is still the case I don't know.

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Gore and Shoeller is alright together I believe, acronym is doing that combo as well.

It works together but it is maybe more profitable to take side and Arc'teryx is a subsidiary of Amer Sports ; I suppose that Conroy Nachtigall is not as free (on a business point of view and so about the fabric) as Errolson Hugh.

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Arc'teryx uses shitloads of schoeller. They use it in pack compartiments, in interior and exterior garment pockets, and as edge trim. They've just moved away from it as a core fabric.

Schoeller makes quality fabrics, no two ways about it, but the hipstersque namedropping some brands participate in when it comes to schoeller is just that. At the end of the day they're basic stretch wovens. Dynamic is awesome, dryskin is okay, wb400 is a hideous abomination of a softshell fabric. Their surface treatments are great.

It's also not THAT expensive. Beyond sews up combat uniforms in the us, in schoeller, in restricted camouflage patterns with nir-compliant dyes, and i assue you they don't go for outlier prices.

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I spoke to Conroy once about the samples he did, and they can go pretty crazy at Veilance. Wether it makes it to production is another story off course. I think you are right in saying that Errolson and his team can do more controversial desings but that is also one of their unique selling points off course, in a way they need to. Otherwise we could all just buy the Tilak branded designs he does ;)

But that also directly gives they question...why is veilance not doing that? The new gloves for example are just taken 1 on 1 from the mainline and some other designs could also just pass for mainline stuff. Why is there such a minimal differentation between veilance and the mainline? instead of making it a true 'playground' for experimenting and then taking it over to mainline if neccesary.

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wb400 is a hideous abomination of a softshell fabric

Acronym uses some "WB-400 Cotton Softshell" in SS13 (even there are absolutely no cotton in it if you look at the schoeller label) and to me it is the best softshell to date.

The Veilance polytope hooded jacket seems amazing too

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WB-400 has a few possible fabric components: Cordura, Lycra, polyamide, polyester, PU coating. And on top of that you can add silly stuff like energear. Depending on how you combine it it can make a great softshell fabric or a bad one.

But I tend to find softshell fabrics bad in general, the fabric capabilities are good but I have this weird association with it (the outdoorsy-type in the office with his orange softshell jacket which looks like shit) which makes me not want to buy it :')

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http://vf13w2.arcteryx.com/Article.aspx?EN&article=New-GORE-TEX-Pro

 

 

looks promising and about the Patrol IS it reads:

 

 

The next generation GORE-TEX® barrier's higher degree of resistance ensures longevity, switching conventional membrane structure by placing a filter between two membrane layers, as opposed to one membrane layer sandwiched between two filters, allowing greater rates of breathability.

 

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Except the bird logo and the logo you think they're exactly the same? (just ordered them, the facet)

 

 The new gloves for example are just taken 1 on 1 from the mainline 

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Except the bird logo and the logo you think they're exactly the same? (just ordered them, the facet)

They're both 0.9mm lezanova leather and the patterning looks identical, but maybe there are diffences apparent only in person.

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They're both 0.9mm lezanova leather and the patterning looks identical, but maybe there are diffences apparent only in person.

It seems the facet have no seams at the middle of the fingers, will tell give some details there when receive them

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That indeed seems to be the only difference on first sight. They both have the seam-free fingertips.

Looks like the facet gloves have a slightly different pattern which takes the seams away at the middle of the fingers. That probably results in more excess leather they can't use anymore which partly explaines the higher prices for the facet.

Edited by shadows

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Yes, that "car salesman-like" comment on Schoeller was a bit off.

 

Why is there such a minimal differentation between veilance and the mainline? instead of making it a true 'playground' for experimenting and then taking it over to mainline if neccesary.

There is still a big differentiation, Veilance is still true to it's core design philosophy and it's not a playground like other techwear companies. As much as I love it, there is very little practical need for stuff like GT short sleeve blazers and bikers. 

 

 

 

Gore and Shoeller is alright together I believe, acronym is doing that combo as well.

The rumor/public secret goes that the Gore licensing doesn't/didn't allow Ventile I believe. But in what way that is still the case I don't know.

Not true, for example Tilak and Stone Island are still using them both. I've heard that Gore is "discouraging" it's partners from using Polartec Neoshell and eVent.

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It's also not THAT expensive. Beyond sews up combat uniforms in the us, in schoeller, in restricted camouflage patterns with nir-compliant dyes, and i assue you they don't go for outlier prices.

Schoeller fabric is expensive, their fabrics run anywhere from $20 - $35 a yard, excluding any duty and shipping you'd have to pay exporting from Switzerland. 2 yards for a pair of pants + trims + making it in NYC...if you do the math Outlier is very reasonably priced relative to other clothing brands.

Anyways, I think people worry too much about what it actually costs to make these products. I get that no one wants to feel ripped off, but worry about the quality of the garment, not the cost of production which is going to be affected by things like supply chain management, vertical integration, etc which have zero bearing on the quality of the product.

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Schoeller fabric is expensive, their fabrics run anywhere from $20 - $35 a yard, excluding any duty and shipping you'd have to pay exporting from Switzerland..

Guess what, that's a perfectly average price for performance softshell fabric in non-bulk quantities.

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I'm quoting bulk prices.

I just saw that they raised prices on their OGs to $240. That does seem a little high but makes sense considering how fast they sell out.

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Small runs mean higher cost, but if the market supports a higher price, it also means lower risk. Anyway we've been derailing here for quite a bit. Looking forward to checking out veilance f13 in person.

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from what I can gleam the facet gloves have a slight sleeker design and are a lighter version of the tacticians.

 

both are made using lezanova goat leather at 0.9mm thick but the tacticians are a little thicker in palm with 1.1mm which reinforces this area of the glove. on the facet there is also the absence of the reinforced thumb, a slimmer gauntlet with smaller velcro patch and of course no logo.

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If you like "White Rock Store" from Taiwan on Facebook, they have recent pictures showcasing a few Veilance s/s 2014 pieces. Talk about early.

Edited by VivaceKinetics

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I love the way Silver and Gold models their Veilance pieces. One of the few retailers that does Veilance justice. 

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