Jump to content

Selvedge Denim


eldave04

Recommended Posts

chainstiching is used where the fabric needs to have "give" in it. if you look at vintage levis, there is chanstitching on all the felled seams(yoke, rear seam etc), hem and bottom of w.b. is chainstitched so that after shrinkage the seam will slightlystretch back out. single needle stitching is used at the top of the w.b. so that it will n0t stretch out.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

chainstiching is used where the fabric needs to have "give" in it. if you look at vintage levis, there is chanstitching on all the felled seams(yoke, rear seam etc), hem and bottom of w.b. is chainstitched so that after shrinkage the seam will slightlystretch back out. single needle stitching is used at the top of the w.b. so that it will n0t stretch out.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

chainstiching is used where the fabric needs to have "give" in it. if you look at vintage levis, there is chanstitching on all the felled seams(yoke, rear seam etc), hem and bottom of w.b. is chainstitched so that after shrinkage the seam will slightlystretch back out. single needle stitching is used at the top of the w.b. so that it will n0t stretch out.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

don't mind me, lots of stuff i wan to know...

as a side note, Evisu jeans are WAY too expensive in the States. Minimum $300 in NYC. Just went into the Evisu store in Seoul, Korea and bought a pair for $80. highest pair was $120. How can this happen? Why/ How are people paying this 200-300% markup?

Though i will pay $200 for my DDC's cause i can't get nothin' like them ANYWHERE!

--- Original message by savage on Jun 1, 2005 07:54 AM

evisu u.s. and europe are a licensee of evisu japan, and not the same quality. evisu japan gulls (pocket prints) come to a point and are skinny, all the license versions are fat and rounded at the bottom. this is one way to tell the differance. if you want authentic evisu it is really only available in japan. as far as the quality, u.s. and europe product is inferior to japan evisu. fabric is cheaper, make is not as good. it is possible that the 80.00 dollar jeans are fake. there are many fakes coming from korea, china and h.k.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

Hey Yakboy. I was thinking about chain stitching the other day, thinking it must have a specific purpose. I was taking up a pair of Wranglers for my mate the other day and had to unpick the chain stitch on the hem, and it came away quite easy. So is that the reason for chain stitching to move with the denim? Interesting. Not everyone uses 100% cotton thread though yeah? Not sure, polyester thread doesn't shrink.

Edited by andewhall on Jul 7, 2005 at 01:53 PM

--- Original message by andewhall on Jul 7, 2005 01:51 PM

chainstitches are functional stitches. the purpose of chainstitching to to give a slight stretch to the seam sewn with it. on vintage jeans it was is used to help control the fit from shrinkage. non sanforized denims used to shrink more than the thread , so to maintain specs at cruicial points (rear seam, yoke, bottom of waistband,hem) and maintain proportionate shrinkage, some stretch was needed. chainstitches are not as strong as a single needle stitches, but allow "give" at crucial seams. most factories do not have single needle chainstitching machines that were used for hems, anymore as they use more thread and fabric modern fabric does not shrink as much, therefore not requiring it. almost all mass produced modern jeans have chainstiched, waistbands,yokes and rises still.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

pointballer, have you washed them? if so, it sounds like the seams twisted, which is normal and desirable by many people. If not, it could just be the effect of a tapered leg. Quite common, I have some 501XXs where the seams tend to sit near the center of my sneakers, and they've never been washed.

--- Original message by wild_whiskey on May 14, 2005 01:02 PM

almost all vintage levis torqe. your left legs outseam is twisting to the right. your left leg slightly the same way (to the right) but not as noticable. this happens on selvedge goods that are not anti-skewed. this is a process where the woven fabric is pulled back into shape before sewing,done at the at the fabric mill. most jeans and vintage levis are a 3x1 right hand twill and will torque to the right. alot of selvedge is not ant-skewed because the comapny desires and authentic type of denim / look. the jeans will most likely always do this. wrangler started using broken twills to stop this problem before antiskewing was widely used.torqueing can also happen from sloppy sewing where the inseam operator is pulling one panel to hard in order to ensure that the seams line up.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

In the past Levi's always had a red line in their selvage which quickly faded with washing, Wrangler had a blue line and Lee had plain selvage.

--- Original message by johnmc on Apr 15, 2005 09:05 PM

lee and wrangler also had green and yellow selvage edges, differant colors were used by the mills to indenitfy differant qualities / weights etc.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

I've been eyeing a pair of Rag & Bone, selvage, 11 oz. The wash has a greenish hue, much like the 5EPs I've seen posted. They're nice jeans. They're also expensive. Do other's feel they are too high? Would any one rate them as close to equal to 5EPs, or more on par with PDCs, Earnest Sewns, etc?

--- Original message by 35mm on Apr 25, 2005 08:01 AM

the 5 eps definatly have the highest fabric quality.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

Hi,

I was hoping someone could suggest a fix for my problem.

I have a pair of Evis raw selvedge denim jeans. I washed them cold and they now fit perfectly apart from the waist band. I generally leave the top botton undone. Is there anyway to unshrink the waistban?

Any help or (constructive) advice appreciated.

Cheers

--- Original message by Lazylinepainter on Apr 9, 2005 03:35 PM

ive noticed that most evisu jeans are cut with too much hip curve from the bottom of tracking stitch up. they always look baggy around the hips and dont lye flat agianst the hip / low hip and make you thighs look huge, after shrinkage im sure its even worse. try re-wetting them and stretching them out from the bottom of the waistband. next time wear them while you wash them.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

If the two different width denims are made from the same ingredients, then there will be negligible difference.

Obviously they won't be 100% identical, but neither would different dye lots of the same selvage denim.

--- Original message by ringring on Mar 18, 2005 12:29 PM

the wide width denim will always look "neater", airjet looms weave tremoundously faster than shuttle looms. shuttle looms will always look slightly less even and weaving tension will vary more.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just recieved my JulianRed jeans and i am very impressed with the quality. riverts and buttons are plain non-copper but the denim used is great. I got a pair of unwashed Californias and unwashed Detriots. i cant post pictures as my memory card for the cam is spoilt but those that own them would agree with me that their Calis are cut very nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the wide width denim will always look "neater", airjet looms weave tremoundously faster than shuttle looms. shuttle looms will always look slightly less even and weaving tension will vary more.

I kind of agree, that full width denim can and often is 'neater' than shuttle looms. But as with many of the commonly bandied 'facts' about selvedge denim, the real answer is "yes and no".

Selvedge denim is commonly quoted as being more 'irregular', softer, stronger etc, but they are usually half-truths and marketing talk. (on a similar note, there was a good discussion on here about the whether the story about Japanese companies buying up all the US shuttle looms is true or not)

Just as one example, I'm sitting next to a gentleman who's wearing a pair of expensive, non selvedge, Diesels. I'm wearing a pair of similarly priced selvedge jeans in natural indigo. If the usual clichés apply, then the selvedge jeans would stand out by having a more irregular weave, softer hand feel etc. In this case, however, the denim used by Diesel is far more irregular than my selvedge jeans. The Diesels have a nice dry, compact hand feel, but the selvedge jeans are stiffer (both jeans are washed)...etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

the wide width denim will always look "neater", airjet looms weave tremoundously faster than shuttle looms. shuttle looms will always look slightly less even and weaving tension will vary more.

I kind of agree, that full width denim can and often is 'neater' than shuttle looms. But as with many of the commonly bandied 'facts' about selvedge denim, the real answer is "yes and no".

Selvedge denim is commonly quoted as being more 'irregular', softer, stronger etc, but they are usually half-truths and marketing talk. (on a similar note, there was a good discussion on here about the whether the story about Japanese companies buying up all the US shuttle looms is true or not)

Just as one example, I'm sitting next to a gentleman who's wearing a pair of expensive, non selvedge, Diesels. I'm wearing a pair of similarly priced selvedge jeans in natural indigo. If the usual clichés apply, then the selvedge jeans would stand out by having a more irregular weave, softer hand feel etc. In this case, however, the denim used by Diesel is far more irregular than my selvedge jeans. The Diesels have a nice dry, compact hand feel, but the selvedge jeans are stiffer (both jeans are washed)...etc.

--- Original message by ringring on Jul 10, 2005 11:09 PM

i aggree that there are differant levels of quality and asthetic differneces in wide width / selvedge goods. just because its selvedge doesnt automaticly make it a "better" fabric. my post was really the short answer. all the ingrediants and steps make a difference in quality-

-cotton grade / quality and blend

-cotton cleaning /refinement

-amsler spun ring yarns vrs. true ring

-multiple warp yarns vrs. single warp

-weft yarn size and texture

-slasher dye vrs. rope dye

-sulpher / indigo conent

-weaving speed

-finshing, finishing, finishing

fabrics can appear totally differant looking and felleing even when rigid depending on the finishing. selvedge goods tend to be less finished, if at all, creating a more authentic vintage look. very few true loomstate (direclty taken of the loom) fabrics exist. in u.s. jeans. most are found in japan. even lvc fabrics are singed and ani skewed to ensure less fallout in quality control.

starching, singeing, anti skewing ,sanforizing, mercerizing, parchment finishing etc..all change the natural look of the denim after its woven. most high quality wide width goods are formulated from start to finish specificlly to have an uneven, vintage look to them, and are done cheaper/ faster and with better consistancy, than when done with a narrow shuttle loom.

the real beauty of shuttle loom fabrics is that the consistancy cant be controlled as much and the imperfections are natural.

real imperfection is alot more special than formulated imperfection. it really depends on youre presonal philosphy of what value is. to me, basic strength / color etc.. is important, but more important- its knowing that the designer truly understands the medium in which they are working. if price is a factor for you, than yes, its possible to get great wide width jeans at a reasonable price, but if you want something authentic, go with shuttle made goods....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

the wide width denim will always look "neater", airjet looms weave tremoundously faster than shuttle looms. shuttle looms will always look slightly less even and weaving tension will vary more.

I kind of agree, that full width denim can and often is 'neater' than shuttle looms. But as with many of the commonly bandied 'facts' about selvedge denim, the real answer is "yes and no".

Selvedge denim is commonly quoted as being more 'irregular', softer, stronger etc, but they are usually half-truths and marketing talk. (on a similar note, there was a good discussion on here about the whether the story about Japanese companies buying up all the US shuttle looms is true or not)

Just as one example, I'm sitting next to a gentleman who's wearing a pair of expensive, non selvedge, Diesels. I'm wearing a pair of similarly priced selvedge jeans in natural indigo. If the usual clichés apply, then the selvedge jeans would stand out by having a more irregular weave, softer hand feel etc. In this case, however, the denim used by Diesel is far more irregular than my selvedge jeans. The Diesels have a nice dry, compact hand feel, but the selvedge jeans are stiffer (both jeans are washed)...etc.

--- Original message by ringring on Jul 10, 2005 11:09 PM

i aggree that there are differant levels of quality and asthetic differneces in wide width / selvedge goods. just because its selvedge doesnt automaticly make it a "better" fabric. my post was really the short comment. all the ingrediants and steps make a difference in quality-

-cotton grade / quality and blend

-cotton cleaning /refinement

-amsler spun ring yarns vrs. true ring

-multiple warp yarns vrs. single warp

-weft yarn size and texture

-slasher dye vrs. rope dye

-sulpher / indigo conent

-weaving speed

-finshing, finishing, finishing

fabrics can appear totally differant looking and feeling even when rigid depending on the finishing. selvedge goods tend to be less finished, if at all, creating a more authentic vintage look. very few true loomstate (direclty taken of the loom) fabrics exist in u.s. jeans. most are found in japan. even the shrink to fit lvc fabrics are singed and anti skewed to ensure less fallout in quality control.

starching, singeing, anti skewing ,sanforizing, mercerizing, parchment finishing etc..all change the natural look of the denim after its woven.

most high quality wide width goods are formulated from start to finish specificlly to have an uneven, vintage look to them, and are done cheaper/ faster and with better consistancy, than when done with a narrow shuttle loom.

the real beauty of shuttle loom fabrics is that the consistancy cant be controlled as much and the imperfections are natural.

real imperfection is alot more special than formulated imperfection. it really depends on youre presonal philosphy of what value and quality is. to me, basic strength / color etc.. is important, but more important- its knowing that the designer truly understands and appreciates the medium in which they are working. id rather have the real thing over a copy of it. if price is a factor for you, than yes, its possible to get great wide width jeans at a reasonable price, but if you want something more authentic, go with shuttle made goods....

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ringring, I just saw on a website about it, on an old discussion board, someone said Cone Mills had changed to the wide-width looms and the old ones were deteriorating, getting useless... and they had a hard time to fix them, so they sold about 90% of them to Japan (I believe the first post-wide-width-loom narrow-width-loom-denim-manufacturers were Kurabo and Kaihara). These Japanese fixed the "complicated" old looms piece by piece "with the precision of a watch" and so on... while in Cone Mills they still have a very small quantity of old looms. I think they still use the old looms at Cone Mills. Oh, and the Japanese have learned from the looms they acquired to develop and build their own narrow-width looms. -sorry if this doesn't make much sense I'm need to sleep-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geowu, I would love to see definitive accounts of whether Cone sold looms to Japan. But given the number of Toyoda looms in circulation in Japan (and even Europe and the US), I can't see why the Japanese would want to buy them. I'm sure there will be some US looms there, but I don't believe they were the ones used for volume production. People I know who went to Kurabo in the late '80s tell me they didn't see any evidence of American, as opposed to Japanese, looms...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me add to that statement...

I had a faxed 'interview' with the man who first made the claim to have bought "old Levi's looms". He told me exactly that in a faxed statement. THen I faxed him and asked, "well, are you saying that you bought some of Cone's old looms, because of course Levi's never owned any'. His reply was vague, but essentially he said he had bought "american-style vintage looms'. Of course, even this was not true, as the jeans manufacturer in question bought its denim in from another company in Osaka. This, to me, indicated that the claim about buying old Cone looms was initially a nice piece of spin, to embellish what was essentially true, that Japan, rather than the US, had become the true home of high quality selvage denim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

ringring, I just saw on a website about it, on an old discussion board, someone said Cone Mills had changed to the wide-width looms and the old ones were deteriorating, getting useless... and they had a hard time to fix them, so they sold about 90% of them to Japan (I believe the first post-wide-width-loom narrow-width-loom-denim-manufacturers were Kurabo and Kaihara). These Japanese fixed the "complicated" old looms piece by piece "with the precision of a watch" and so on... while in Cone Mills they still have a very small quantity of old looms. I think they still use the old looms at Cone Mills. Oh, and the Japanese have learned from the looms they acquired to develop and build their own narrow-width looms. -sorry if this doesn't make much sense I'm need to sleep-

--- Original message by Geowu on Jul 11, 2005 03:09 AM

cone has about 30 of their original looms, and not all are still running. they are from the 1950s to 1960s. cone started switching totally to wide width looms and open end yarn in the early 1980s for mass production. cone still makes denim for levis "lvc" and sells some other qualities to various other companies in small quantities. after ww2 in the 1950s the u.s. was in a huge econmoic growth and occupied japan, at this time alot of american equipment from various types of factories was sold to japan. im sure looms were sent to japan, but currently i think most of the shuttle looms that kaihara and kurabo use are more modern copies of old style looms...

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FINALLY! where were you guys?

sweet orr,

i totally agree and echo what you said. ringring and me had huge conversations here about shuttle vs jet, oe/ring vs r/r, natural vs real indigo, etc. there're so many factors as you mentioned (construction, dye, yarn size) which make the fabric "premium". not all non-selvedge are crap but usually selvedge have the possibility to have better above mentioned criteria...

at the end of the day (esp todays) you cant really tell the difference between vintage and 2nd hand and repro - not only denim. but then there are not many people outthere crazy enough, passionate enough and have not much time to KNOW the past and the heritage. eg joe mccoy/ real mccoy are one who studied it.

to know that your slubs are made from inconsitancy and naivite rather from an emsler is depth and beauty. it's a luxury.

but what do you gonna do with the knowledge for the future?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Quote:

ringring, I just saw on a website about it, on an old discussion board, someone said Cone Mills had changed to the wide-width looms and the old ones were deteriorating, getting useless... and they had a hard time to fix them, so they sold about 90% of them to Japan (I believe the first post-wide-width-loom narrow-width-loom-denim-manufacturers were Kurabo and Kaihara). These Japanese fixed the "complicated" old looms piece by piece "with the precision of a watch" and so on... while in Cone Mills they still have a very small quantity of old looms. I think they still use the old looms at Cone Mills. Oh, and the Japanese have learned from the looms they acquired to develop and build their own narrow-width looms. -sorry if this doesn't make much sense I'm need to sleep-

--- Original message by Geowu on Jul 11, 2005 03:09 AM

cone has about 30 of their original looms, and not all are still running. they are from the 1950s to 1960s. cone started switching totally to wide width looms and open end yarn in the early 1980s for mass production. cone still makes denim for levis "lvc" and sells some other qualities to various other companies in small quantities. after ww2 in the 1950s the u.s. was in a huge econmoic growth and occupied japan, at this time alot of american equipment from various types of factories was sold to japan. im sure looms were sent to japan, but currently i think most of the shuttle looms that kaihara and kurabo use are more modern copies of old style looms...

--- Original message by sweet orr on Jul 11, 2005 06:30 AM

there are so many stories what happened and it seems noone really knows. but i like paul t's one the most!;p

apparently, the person who really knew how to fix and operate them passed away without having an apprentice...

paul, i can imagine the japanese buying them. they buy everything including paris!;p

they always want the real deal...

i just sampled some cone selvedges and i'm not too impressed...also their leadtime is longgggg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cone did lose a lot of their old staff with the old looms - the new looms required fewer operators. I've been told that when Cone reintroduced selvage they had to entice staff out of retirement to operate them.

FWIW, as COne had a lot of looms at one time, I don't see why some of them couldn't have ended up in Japan. But the story started by Evis that they'd bought them is, I believe, total rubbish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

Cone did lose a lot of their old staff with the old looms - the new looms required fewer operators. I've been told that when Cone reintroduced selvage they had to entice staff out of retirement to operate them.

FWIW, as COne had a lot of looms at one time, I don't see why some of them couldn't have ended up in Japan. But the story started by Evis that they'd bought them is, I believe, total rubbish.

--- Original message by Paul T on Jul 12, 2005 04:31 PM

evisu has a non-functional (for display) antique shuttle loom in the entrance in one of their tokyo stores. im not sure what kind it is.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

FINALLY! where were you guys?

sweet orr,

i totally agree and echo what you said. ringring and me had huge conversations here about shuttle vs jet, oe/ring vs r/r, natural vs real indigo, etc. there're so many factors as you mentioned (construction, dye, yarn size) which make the fabric "premium". not all non-selvedge are crap but usually selvedge have the possibility to have better above mentioned criteria...

at the end of the day (esp todays) you cant really tell the difference between vintage and 2nd hand and repro - not only denim. but then there are not many people outthere crazy enough, passionate enough and have not much time to KNOW the past and the heritage. eg joe mccoy/ real mccoy are one who studied it.

to know that your slubs are made from inconsitancy and naivite rather from an emsler is depth and beauty. it's a luxury.

but what do you gonna do with the knowledge for the future?

--- Original message by urban sprawl on Jul 12, 2005 01:54 PM

there are very few mills that make a fabric that is truly authentic.

so much of it (authentic denim) has to do with the cotton refinement and spinning. the natural slubs in antique ring spun denims are caused by inconsistincy in the cotton refinement, now most cotton is mechanically cleaned, refined etc.. turn of the century cotton refinement methods were done by hand.

also, the way in which the cotton itself is grown and picked is differant. now most cotton fibre is smooth and clean before it is spun into yarns. mills use amsler attachements the create a computerized specific slub look by "roughing up" the smooth ring yarns with the amsler attachment.

indigo dye and the chemicals used today are also alot differant. alot of the amonias and chemicals that were used to are too toxic for mills to use today and are chemically duplicated.

the methodology of creating goods in modern times (even in japan) is totally differant. now , mills are trying to mimic a look that was naturally created, as apposed to having real inconsistancy. i really dont think any mills duplicate the original processes 100%, its really just not possible to do on a small scale and be affordable. there are fabrics from japan that are close, but they are too expensive to use for most consumers. even cone cant duplicate 100% old processes with the modern equipment that is currently used.

i aggree that most of the companies wich truly undestand fabric and vintage denim are in japan. most american and european companies have only a surface understanding of denim.

sweet-orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

Ok I thought I'd also share two recent acquisitions

(1) - pair of 5EP one wash.

(2) - pair of 45rpm "2005" sorahikos.

The quality of the 5EPs are in my view second to none. The construction and finishing really are something else, better I thinh than the more expensive rpms. The cast is very green, fit is kind of narrow-ish, slightly tapered. Thinking of keeping these dark, not going for wear/washed look.

45rpms are new style just introduced apparently. They are pretty wide legged. Denim very very slubby, imperfections in selvedge line etc. Think the dye will come out fairly easily on these so will try some gently "encouragement" on areas of wear to see what devlelops. They are lovely too, quite heavy. Nice detailing like "raised" fabric on belt loops and pockets between the stitiching - apparently it's an old fashioned sewing machine that does this (I'm sure others will know more than me).

--- Original message by leviathan on Jun 28, 2005 12:47 PM

I have to second the quality comment for the 5EPs. I think I have the same one wash green tint ones. Something I've noticed after wearing them for about three months now with no washing, is that they really haven't stretched at all. All I can really compare them to is my Dope + Drakkar jeans, which I think are more of a Levis repro. The D+D's stretched significantly. Also, the color is JUST starting to wear off around my wallet and in the crotch area, feels like the indigo is not as transferrable as some denim i've had in the past. The thing that strikes me about the 5EP denim is that it is very 'compact' feeling, like the it is more tightly woven or dense.

I cannot compare them to 45rpm. I feel like you cannot really draw too many comparisons between quality jeans until you wear them around for a few days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...