what does authenticity mean to you? Levi's specific

[blake]

I am curious what authenticity means to you when buying denim. Specifically I am curious about everyones thoughts on Levi's vs. a lot of the brands we are wearing coming from japan. Obviously Levi's has history on its side, but why is it many of you do not feel for the brand the way you used to. Is it the way they are manufactured or the quality that you do not like? I am an old school denim guy and I will always have a special place in my heart for levi's, yet I feel like they have let me down to a certain extent. Why do a lot of the younger brands seem to have a more loyal following now without the long history? I know this topic has been touched upon in other threads, but its something I think about all the time. Please share your thoughts. Thanks, blake

[cheep]

well... if you compare modern levis to vintage(pre 1983) there is no comparison in quality. thats the biggest thing for me... if i could get a pair that had the same denim they used in the 40s, 50s, 60s, or even 70s, and made in the usa, id probably wear nothing but levis.

[sneakeraddict]

anyone who likes jeans can not not like Levis.

It's sad that they've diminished the quality of the brand, but thats ultimately what happens when brands become "fashion" focussed instead of quality / durability focussed.

The pairs I've seen recently seem hastily stitched and of a more flimsy cloth - but that's all today's consumer demands as long as the item is 'fashionable'.

I enjoy Levis for the LVC range and their 'authenticity' and the fact those cuts are all timeless, IMO. (Will still look wearable in 10 years time if I still can fit into them... extreme low rise, skinny etc etc won't be 'fashionable' next year, let alone ten years)

I probably wouldnt wear any 'modern' Levis though simply because I'm not sure the workmanship is there... as Cheep said, it's a brand you want to be made in America really.

[blake]

it is interesting that I hear a common theme of wanting the product being made in the states, yet we are all wearing denim manufactured in japan. I want to say for the record that I agree with a lot of the points made. I am under the impression that they have brought the manufacturing back to LA. I agree however it's not what it once was.

[cheep]

i only wear japanese denim because... well... most of the time its free. the last couple pairs i bought with my own money were rrl that were made in the usa. also, if there was a us company who made jeans like sugarcane, warehouse, samurai, evisu, etc... i would buy them before giving my money to the japanese companies.

[partytaco]

if you want to see hastily/imperfect stitched denim look at most pairs of vintage levi's/denim. this is one of details i love about vintage denim. they seemed more personal and irregular. you could tell the mood or state of the worker making the jeans. upside down labels and tags, uneven arcuates, missed stitches, etc... people might have had more pride in their jobs at that time over what you see now but i don't think the level of quality control and the ability to produce something in such uniform mass quantity/quality exists then like it does now. as far as durability goes i do think that a modern levi will last as long or longer than a piece produced in the heyday of denim.

The pairs I've seen recently seem hastily stitched and of a more flimsy cloth - but that's all today's consumer demands as long as the item is 'fashionable'.

[erbs]

Exactly. It is the beauty of imperfection that made to original Levis so great. Someone (ringring perhaps?) made the point that Japanese repros are perfect reproductions of an imperfect past, and thus retain the charm of irregularity.

[blake]

so would it be safe to say that most reading this would prefer to wear denim manufactured in the US? As I said before, I was under the impression that levi's had moved their manufacturing back here.

Kiya, thoughts?

[horriblyjollyjinx]

I am curious what authenticity means to you when buying denim. Specifically I am curious about everyones thoughts on Levi's vs. a lot of the brands we are wearing coming from japan. Obviously Levi's has history on its side, but why is it many of you do not feel for the brand the way you used to. Is it the way they are manufactured or the quality that you do not like? I am an old school denim guy and I will always have a special place in my heart for levi's, yet I feel like they have let me down to a certain extent. Why do a lot of the younger brands seem to have a more loyal following now without the long history? I know this topic has been touched upon in other threads, but its something I think about all the time. Please share your thoughts. Thanks, blake

Levi's up until late 1970s or something was awesome. Levi's Strauss himself seemed particularily cool. Modern Levi's sucks though, theres no merit in design nor quality.

I don't know how well-managed the company is either, because they dont do too well.

Their redeeming quality though is the LVC collection. It's been up and down but this fall and especially ss09 is extremely well made. I'm currently working on my post about lvc for ss09 btw.

Ok, so regarding authenticity. For me, authenticity means the cut and detailing is the same as in the 50s and earlier. I also need denim that takes on the same look after wear.

I don't like brands like PBJ or SDA that much anymore, they feel toy-like. I like Ooe, Warehouse, LVC, Lee Originals and maybe some other brand.

I want to buy only vintage clothing right now, but 40s levis are too expensive so I buy the second best, the aforementioned brands.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

it is interesting that I hear a common theme of wanting the product being made in the states, yet we are all wearing denim manufactured in japan. I want to say for the record that I agree with a lot of the points made. I am under the impression that they have brought the manufacturing back to LA. I agree however it's not what it once was.

'made in xx' is the single biggest piece of bullshit I hear in regards to clothing. The logic thing would be to judge a garment by its quality, not by whats said on the inside tag.

There is a correlation between made in jp/it/us but no guarantee whatsoever.

There's some great stuff coming out of Poland and China and lots of crap coming out of the US.

[Bijan]

To echo some of what has already been written, I would buy the crap out of Levi’s products if the Valencia St factory was still cranking out LVC products. Levi’s is now simply a trademark as far as US made products go- they do not own a US facility; they contract those pieces out. I own and wear a few pairs of 70’s 501s. They’re imperfect in some ways, but they’re better than today’s 501s. Better denim, better cut (IMO). If Levi’s still made jeans like these as a part of their regular line, I’d be all over them. Having said that, my next pair of jeans is going to be some ’37 501s.

Country of origin is not really an issue with denim. I own a pair of Warehouse 1001xx and a pair of PBJ. I really like what the Japanese are doing with the repros, there is a lot of passion evident. I think that a lot of the smaller Japanese shops make their jeans because they love them. Sure, it’s their business, but it seems like they love jeans/denim. That’s impressive to me, and it’s why I’m eagerly awaiting an email from OOE with an ETA and more information on their 501 repros. They appear to be pretty authentic and very well made.

Authenticity means more to me now than it did a couple of years ago. For instance, today I wouldn’t buy the PBJ jeans I own. They’re very vintage inspired, but I prefer a higher rise. They get worn, but not as often as my 1001xx or vintage Levi’s. Good thread!

[Paul T]

I am hung up on what products are made in the US. I won't wear modern Converse, or anything to do with Nike. I wouldn't wear LVC made in Turkey (partly because they look crappy). It also upset me when Levi's moved production out of Valencia, especially as I saw the factory when it was working, and found it such a god embodiment of the Levi's ethos. I think they were mad to close it, even if they did get a couple of million for conversion into apartments; they could have done short-run replicas or custom orders for Japan and simply doubled the price and the market would have still been there.

As far as Levi's go, there is an element of authenticity that has disappeared, particularly as they have gone mass market. But there's also a quality to what they do that's simply not appreciated; brilliant obscure LVC reissues like the 333, or fashion items like RED that get ripped off by everyone from Michiko Koshino to Miss Sixty! I see the problems there of a company that simply got too big.

All that said, and as anal as I am about US-made stuff, as long as the product is good it doesn't bother me. These are clothes to be worn, not antiques to be looked at. I used tp only wear vintage when I was in my teens, but when Lee produced a 101 replica made in Eire I never looked back - finally, I could get pants that weren't too short, that I could wear in myself and get fades better than 99% of the vintage stuff out there.

The term "authentic" is in the main a marketing buzzword. Authenticity to me comes from wearing jeans your own way, wearing them in so they look good, and ultimately where they come from don't mean squat.

[Slub]

I like Bijan's point about the perceived love and passion that many of the small Japanese manufacturers have for recreating 'authentic' vintage denim. This means a lot to me also, the fact that i'm a denim nerd/geek, what-you-will, and I can buy a product that was made by people with the same passion. It's a delight to read through magazines like Free & Easy and see the love for real vintage and reproduced vintage and presented side-by-side too. Where is the equivalent publication in the States?

This dedication to labor intensive detail and quality over mass production imbues these garments with a kind of 'authenticity' I believe, regardless of where they were made.

[coleslawyum]

It's a delight to read through magazines like Free & Easy and see the love for real vintage and reproduced vintage and presented side-by-side too. Where is the equivalent publication in the States?

True indeed. But Japan can bring anything to a level of fanaticism. I have Japanese books about denim, ramen, watches, burgers, 1930's oil lamps, vintage eye patches, wooden peg legs, etc. etc. I just can't imagine anyone in the US wanting to buy any of these publications except for a handful of people.

I love vintage, and I love the Japanese repros. If Levi's can make a good product, then sure, I'll buy it. Good craftmanship can come from anywhere. As long as the passion is evident in the product, then people will respect that.

[Hendodo]

most of the levi's these days have cheap quality. made with synthetic indigo etc. and some of their cuts are not as flattering and the japanese denim companies

[cheep]

most of the levi's these days have cheap quality. made with synthetic indigo etc. and some of their cuts are not as flattering and the japanese denim companies

you do know that 99% of japanese jeans use synthetic indigo too right?

[jubei]

as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, if it weren't for Levi's then none of us would be into denim as much as we are, period. I think that's more or less a universally agreed fact for most people here.

The next question, then, is why Levi's? Mostly, it's because of how "democratic" a pair of Levi's was in the past... they were worn by everyone (from celebrities to average joes), were affordable, and reliable.

So what does authenticity mean and what is its value? For most people on the board, it's about recapturing some of the spirit of those old photos that are in our collective memory... prospect miners, post WW2 greasers, etc.

As to how we go about doing that, well there's a few different schools of thought: there's die hard purists who need all of the specs of the garment to mirror the real mccoy from fabric to construction (this is LVC and Japanese Repros). There's also people who emulate a look, but may not necessarily need to be exhaustive about it (I am thinking here of companies like Rag & Bone and maybe RRL). And of course, there is a wide spectrum of companies that fall in the middle.

Personally, I like striking a balance between a garment that actually fits my skinny ass frame and has some of the qualities of the older garments. I'm also fond of cuts that are more resistant to changes in silhouette (e.g. slim but not tight, straight leg with a little taper) I own jeans from all different points of the denim continuum: SC 1947s, Warehouse DD 1920s, Nudie TFDBC, Edwin ED47, WH x BiG, RRL Slim fit.

I find that I wear the latter two pairs far more than the rest because they're not too exaggerated in terms of fit and because I like their fabric the most.

I'm not super concerned about pedigree these days, but I do find that the stuff I tend to lean towards is the stuff that is coming out of Japan. If I came across something made in the US or China or where ever that faded as well or had as nice a hand as the stuff from Japan, I wouldn't be shy about buying it.

[sneakeraddict]

Some things to add:

Levis (perhaps the 501 only) brand survives the whims of fashion.

They're never something you would look back at and think "I wore THOSE???" in two years time.

They never get 'overkill' (think Nudies)

I am not bothered so much where the item is made in USA or Japan (except when the company charges a premium made in USA / Japan / Italy price when they are actually making the jeans in sweatshops in China etc... e.g. G Star etc).

[ILHE1S]

What matter's to me the most when it come to product's "specifically Jean's" are

#1: The Quality

#2: The story and History behind the product. ie: passion and reasoning!