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jeepster

If this earns me an infraction, then word up

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god exists if you believe in it

as for the rest of us, i think we use logic

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baphomet.gif

I was always fond of the idea that the Judeo-Christian god was the evil one who won out in the end - and history after all, is written by the victors. So God and his obedient followers slandered Satan throughout the millenia, persecuting and torturing the worshippers of Lucifer.

God demands blind obedience, intolerance, and xenophobia. Forbids all pleasure, creativity, and art. A warmongering, jealous, petty, and abusive sadist who delights in torturing his minions (book of Job), and making them murder their offspring (Abraham), chooses the rape of young girls over consensual gay sex (Sodom), and countless other acts of brutality.

Good ol' Lucifer/Satan is in stark contrast, a downright enlightened humanitarian. The bringer of light, knowledge, and independent thought. Music, art, sex, beauty are all his gifts to humanity.

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With the "7 days for Creation" argument, you do realize that back then when it was written, they had no understanding of hours, or minutes or days. It was dawn, noon, dusk, night.etc. Days could be used as reference to a time period, not just the specific 24hr, 60mins an hour day. By that, it means that it could've taken place over years. To the power of whatever integer.

If you look at it that way, with an open mind, I don't think it's impossible to see that evolution actually COULD fit in it. Perhaps on a scale that we're not sure of, but certainly in some manner. Or at least, the chance occurs dramatically.

Formation of earth 4.5 billion years ago etc. etc. Land rises out of the water [super continents breaking up etc.], first animals appear. And then followed by Man. And also, perhaps not all Biblical "days" are equal.

And if God is really taking a break right now [The Sabbath and resting], then perhaps that'd go a long way to explain some of the shit that goes on nowadays. Again, these are just the random thoughts of a person barely out of their teenage years. So feel free to constructively criticize.

*

headcoat: I see what you mean by cumulative nature of evolution. However, you'd also know that many reactions don't occur spontaneously [Gibbs energy etc.] and some require inordinate amounts to occur at temperatures and pressures that while not non-existent, are very rare in nature.

I'm not saying it's impossible that we randomly turned out from literally, an infinitessimal piece of carbon and free floating hydrogen and oxygen atoms to what we are today. I'm stating my opinion that I find it pretty unlikely.

*

Scais: True. Religion might be a way of dealing with our fear of Death and hoping that we go to a 'better place'. Having said that, to be honest, I'd much rather die and pass onto nothingness, similar to having a dreamless sleep rather than there being the slightest chance of eternal damnation blah blah blah. I mean. I don't think I'd get to wear Dior or Ann D in Hell :(

*

Ultimately, I think that human science is very young. While it's certainly increasing at exponential rates, we're not anywhere near but perhaps one day we'll figure out the truth about creationism. We're still discovering things about this little insignificant planet we call home, let alone the secrets of the wider universe.

But for now, perhaps we can agree that we don't know enough to conclusively say something. Wasn't it not too long ago that people who said the Earth was flat were burned as heretics?

*

Just a thought.

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God is not resting, he's fucking busy, after having finished programming this whole universe, he is now busy coming up with new designs for snowflakes all-day-every-day...

He never would've guessed that saying that every one of those would be different would have such an effect on his everyday life. It's all he does nowadays...

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baphomet.gif

I was always fond of the idea that the Judeo-Christian god was the evil one who won out in the end - and history after all, is written by the victors. So God and his obedient followers slandered Satan throughout the millenia, persecuting and torturing the worshippers of Lucifer.

God demands blind obedience, intolerance, and xenophobia. Forbids all pleasure, creativity, and art. A warmongering, jealous, petty, and abusive sadist who delights in torturing his minions (book of Job), and making them murder their offspring (Abraham), chooses the rape of young girls over consensual gay sex (Sodom), and countless other acts of brutality.

Good ol' Lucifer/Satan is in stark contrast, a downright enlightened humanitarian. The bringer of light, knowledge, and independent thought. Music, art, sex, beauty are all his gifts to humanity.

so god hates christian rock and the paintings on the sistine chapel?

i guess we can tell all those in the baptists church that god hates when someone sings

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im agnostic but i usually defend religious people in these types of debates just because i hate the stereotypical "atheists" who have that belief just because its cool to have.

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so god hates christian rock and the paintings on the sistine chapel?

i guess we can tell all those in the baptists church that god hates when someone sings

In a way yes. For much of christianity's reign, the church stifled all expressions of creativity if it wasn't directed towards glorifying God - thats why all the great art of the middle ages and Rennaisance depict biblical themes.

Some modern worshippers still find Christian rock heretical.

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"Agnostic" is not a religious status. Saying you're an agnostic simply means you dont think there is any evidence to support the existence of a God. It does not answer the question "Do you believe in God?"

You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. It is possible to deny that there is evidence supporting the existence of a god, yet still believe there is one.

If you do not actively belive in a god, you are an atheist.

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Yeah, that word is just meaningless. And more people seem to call themselves that these days than either religious or atheist.

Considering an atheist basically means "i do not believe in a god unless presented with verifiable evidence of his existence", calling yourself an agnostic is weaaaak.

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Yeah, that word is just meaningless. And more people seem to call themselves that these days than either religious or atheist.

Considering an atheist basically means "i do not believe in a god unless presented with verifiable evidence of his existence", calling yourself an agnostic is weaaaak.

Fully agreed. Calling yourself an agnostic is like being afraid to say you're an athiest.

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guess who's wrong (you)

ag·nos·tic Audio Help [ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

since we're being gay about this, i'm an agnostic theist, but don't associate myself with any organized religion.

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im agnostic but i usually defend religious people in these types of debates just because i hate the stereotypical "atheists" who have that belief just because its cool to have.

im pretty sure people dont believe in God for more legitimate reasons than thinking its "cool to have" those ideas

religious views aint fashion, nigga

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the stereotypical "atheists" who have that belief just because its cool to have.

Are you serious?

If I recall you are in Europe somewhere (correct me if thats wrong), so I can not speak to what goes on over there, but speaking from an American context there is basically nothing, "cool" about being athiest here. Im from the bay area in California (probably one of the most liberal areas in the country) and when these conversations would come up at work/school/etc. I was often the only person there to assert that I was an athiest, and I usually got varied reactions; none of them positive/accepting. I can only imagine what having these conversations in middle America would be like.

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
amen
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they have rights granted by fellow man, among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
just doesn't quite have the same ring to it

goddamn commies

FIRST
: Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created.

SECOND
: Humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as a result of a continuous process.

THIRD
: Holding an organic view of life, humanists find that the traditional dualism of mind and body must be rejected.

FOURTH
: Humanism recognizes that man's religious culture and civilization, as clearly depicted by anthropology and history, are the product of a gradual development due to his interaction with his natural environment and with his social heritage. The individual born into a particular culture is largely molded by that culture.

FIFTH
: Humanism asserts that the nature of the universe depicted by modern science makes unacceptable any supernatural or cosmic guarantees of human values. Obviously humanism does not deny the possibility of realities as yet undiscovered, but it does insist that the way to determine the existence and value of any and all realities is by means of intelligent inquiry and by the assessment of their relations to human needs. Religion must formulate its hopes and plans in the light of the scientific spirit and method.

SIXTH
: We are convinced that the time has passed for theism, deism, modernism, and the several varieties of "new thought".

SEVENTH
: Religion consists of those actions, purposes, and experiences which are humanly significant. Nothing human is alien to the religious. It includes labor, art, science, philosophy, love, friendship, recreation — all that is in its degree expressive of intelligently satisfying human living. The distinction between the sacred and the secular can no longer be maintained.

EIGHTH
: Religious Humanism considers the complete realization of human personality to be the end of man's life and seeks its development and fulfillment in the here and now. This is the explanation of the humanist's social passion.

NINTH
: In the place of the old attitudes involved in worship and prayer the humanist finds his religious emotions expressed in a heightened sense of personal life and in a cooperative effort to promote social well-being.

TENTH
: It follows that there will be no uniquely religious emotions and attitudes of the kind hitherto associated with belief in the supernatural.

ELEVENTH
: Man will learn to face the crises of life in terms of his knowledge of their naturalness and probability. Reasonable and manly attitudes will be fostered by education and supported by custom. We assume that humanism will take the path of social and mental hygiene and discourage sentimental and unreal hopes and wishful thinking.

TWELFTH
: Believing that religion must work increasingly for joy in living, religious humanists aim to foster the creative in man and to encourage achievements that add to the satisfactions of life.

THIRTEENTH
: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism.
Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world.

FOURTEENTH
: The humanists are firmly convinced that existing acquisitive and profit-motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate and that a radical change in methods, controls, and motives must be instituted.
A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible. The goal of humanism is a free and universal society in which people voluntarily and intelligently cooperate for the common good.
Humanists demand a shared life in a shared world.

FIFTEENTH AND LAST
: We assert that humanism will: (a) affirm life rather than deny it; (
B)
seek to elicit the possibilities of life, not flee from them; and © endeavor to establish the conditions of a satisfactory life for all, not merely for the few. By this positive morale and intention humanism will be guided, and from this perspective and alignment the techniques and efforts of humanism will flow.

crap

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First off let me say that I'm a protestant Christian. That pretty much means that priests are called pastors, they can marry, you don't have to confess to them, don't pray to Mary, and there is a whole lot less of the business of politics. I find what puts a lot of people off of Christianity is less the beliefs and more the actual people that follow it. Following Christ based on the ideas rather than the people is something that I have chosen. There is a lot of misinformation out there, for example on the extreme end headcoat's rant on Satan.

I was always fond of the idea that the Judeo-Christian god was the evil one who won out in the end - and history after all, is written by the victors. So God and his obedient followers slandered Satan throughout the millenia, persecuting and torturing the worshippers of Lucifer.

God demands blind obedience, intolerance, and xenophobia. Forbids all pleasure, creativity, and art. A warmongering, jealous, petty, and abusive sadist who delights in torturing his minions (book of Job), and making them murder their offspring (Abraham), chooses the rape of young girls over consensual gay sex (Sodom), and countless other acts of brutality.

Good ol' Lucifer/Satan is in stark contrast, a downright enlightened humanitarian. The bringer of light, knowledge, and independent thought. Music, art, sex, beauty are all his gifts to humanity.

God did not delight in torturing Job, he let the Devil do it and in the end Job had double what he had in the beginning. Abraham did not actually kill his son, God stopped him before the end, it was to show the extreme faith that Abraham had in his Lord. Sodom was killed for more than gay sex, that was more or less just the icing on the cake. Satan is in no way a humanitarian, he uses his followers as tools for his ends, and even his most devoted burn like the rest. God created sex, pleasure, art, and music, and intended them to be used. Misuse is the issue. The greatest achievement of Satan was to convince humanity that he doesn't exist outside of cartoon drawings and crappy rock satires.

Personally I don't believe that evolution is false. I think that there is a good chance that people are just discovering the method in which God put things upon the earth. The gaps of extreme improbability between certain reactions could all be explained by acts of God. Or of course God could have taken an entirely different route. There are just too many coincidences and "random" chance that happened all at the right time for me to believe that something came out of nothing. Scientific laws say that order becomes disorder, not the other way around.

I choose to believe in God for more than the "chances". For example, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims (The people surrounding the supposed events) all corroborate on the validity of Jesus' existance. What they choose to believe about him is different. The Muslims believe he was a prophet, The Jews believe he was a fake, and the Christians believe that he was the son of God. I find the Christians easiest to believe because they say he rose from the dead. The Jews believe on the other hand that all his miracles were petty magic tricks (Feeding 5000 people, and turning water into wine cannot be duplicated convincingly by any magician to this day) and that Christ's followers rolled a couple tonne tombstone up a hill under the watch of elite roman soldiers and swapped the body. I don't find that very likely. Rising from the dead is not a very prophet-like thing. I figure that If Jesus exists than God must as well.

Next off, holy books. The Jews believed in all the previous words of God, but when someone came along who fulfilled their prophecy perfectly (including the part about his rejection) they made a decision to just not believe. The Muslims' holy book is made of Mohammed's personal revelations about God, I would imagine other religions follow this pattern. Christianity checks out with its opressors (Jews) and with the people around who saw Jesus' miraculous work.

Opposing to the Muslim belief that you are saved by your works, Christians believe that Christ will forgive you if you party hard or have promiscuous sex. If you find the right kind of church, all that matters is that you work to follow Jesus. For example at my church there are a few hard drug addicts who come through the doors, the people who have a problem with that are in a severe minority. The type of Church you go to makes a big difference, on the far left there is the United church where pastors sometimes don't even have to believe in God, and on the far right is the Catholic church where people sing in Latin and confess to the priests. I find somewhere in the middle suits me best, the Alliance church, for example is free of questionable new age doctrine and the rigid political structure of Catholicism. While there are a few things that I don't have answers to, I choose to follow Christ based on the core of truth I find and the benefit of the doubt that I give him over the few hiccups that people pick out. I'm sorry if this offended you if you are a non-believer with the way that I treat things as truth rather than theories. In your head you can put a little I believe if you really want. I think I've found the truth, and if you think you've found another one, good for you, but I probably don't agree. In the end we'll find out who's right.

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Jesus is nothing to LOL about ok guys :).

I've never referred to myself as an atheist, I think naming it is weird. I'd rather not choose yes/no to god, if he doesn't exist then he doesn't exist. I'm happy just ignoring it altogether.

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.... The greatest achievement of Satan was to convince humanity that he doesn't exist outside of cartoon drawings and crappy rock satires.
I don't mean to be disrespectfull, but are you serious?
....more of that talk...

After reading that I must say that you sound a bit like Eric Glennie...

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Ah shit yes, thanks Jeep!

Jmat hit 10.000 a while back no?

Also, back on topic of believing, and the good things that come from it:

informerff7.jpg

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My god has one eye, two birds, macks tons of wild babes, splits skulls if you don't watch your big mouth, and does a lot of other sick shit when people are looking like drinking oceans of expensive import brews.

OdinismFish.jpg

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I feel like there is some overlaying power that controls us. Not necesarilly a god, but some weird unexplanable force that is there. I also believe in karma. What do you guys think about life on other planets and on the universe. I mean, what the FUCK is the universe expanding into if it is ever expandable. If there is space for it to expand, there has to be something past the universe itself. I mean what the fuck. We know hardly anything about any of the other planets and shit. I bet there is some fucked up shit going down up in those other galaxies where lanvins are still cool and kunk isn't scary.

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The Universe is like God without beginning or end we don't have the mental capacity to understand it because we only conceive of things in a linear temporal sense.

If the Universe is indeed infinite, meaning that there is no inside or outside then words like expansion are not adequate.

Infinite means anything is possible

Like me being wrong for example

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God did not delight in torturing Job, he let the Devil do it and in the end Job had double what he had in the beginning. Abraham did not actually kill his son, God stopped him before the end, it was to show the extreme faith that Abraham had in his Lord. Sodom was killed for more than gay sex, that was more or less just the icing on the cake. Satan is in no way a humanitarian, he uses his followers as tools for his ends, and even his most devoted burn like the rest. God created sex, pleasure, art, and music, and intended them to be used. Misuse is the issue. The greatest achievement of Satan was to convince humanity that he doesn't exist outside of cartoon drawings and crappy rock satires.

God stopping Abraham before killing his son is like a mob boss telling one of his goons to prove his loyalty by shooting someone with an empty gun. God just wanted to know Abraham loved him more than his own son, why? Cuz hes a jealous vindictive, petty fuck.

God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for "wickedness". He kills everyone in those cities. Then he tells the fleeing Lot and his family not to look back, but Lot's wife does. So God turns her into salt. What the fuck is that shit?

The bible is filled to the brim with these tribal tales. It condones and encourages rape, slavery, infanticide, genocide, and xenophobia.

As for your sentence, " God created sex, pleasure, art, and music, and intended them to be used. Misuse is the issue." What is "misuse"? And why is it worthy of punishment?

Personally I don't believe that evolution is false. I think that there is a good chance that people are just discovering the method in which God put things upon the earth. The gaps of extreme improbability between certain reactions could all be explained by acts of God. Or of course God could have taken an entirely different route. There are just too many coincidences and "random" chance that happened all at the right time for me to believe that something came out of nothing. Scientific laws say that order becomes disorder, not the other way around.

First off, there are no "gaps". Everything is a living intermediary. Secondly, why are you invoking a scientific law (in this case, entropy) when you think it suits your argument, but ignore it everywhere else? If you believe entropy disproves evolution, then you have clearly done zero research into this topic as it is the first thing debunked.

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All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds

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