Chain Stitching Sewing Machines and Where to Get Them

[jake431]

I want to chain stitch hem my jeans, and I'd like to not have to send them to the left or right coasts to do it. I've scoured Chicago looking for someone who chainstitches jeans, asked for recommendations, and gotten none. So, I'm looking into getting myself one of those old sewing machines that will do a chainstitch hem. Unfortunately, I know nothing about them. But - the wonderful superfuturarians do! So, I ask you, what models should I be looking for, how much should I be expecting to pay for one, etc etc.

Thanks all for any knowledge you can share on the subject.

-Jake

[edmond]

id like to get one of those union special machines too

[mrpenguin354]

http://www.sewvacdirect.com/singer14t967.html

Hardcore fancy stitch machine.

[jake431]

http://www.sewvacdirect.com/singer14t967.html

Hardcore fancy stitch machine.

Well, that is not cheap, but I suspect par for the course with wanting to Chainstitch.

Thanks,

-Jake

[RobZ]

Based on the fact that only Self Edge and BiG operate a chainstitching machine in the US out of all the possible retailers I would have to think the cost for a machine is short of astronomical - but not by much. I believe you are from Chicago (as am I) so I would applaud having a go-to-chainstitcher here in the Windy City but I think it's a lot more expensive than you think.

Gordon or Kiya should have more info...

[fre-co]

In the UK, a vintage union special chain stitcher would run you about £600, fully serviced, if you can find one. I suspect it would be roughly half that or perhaps a littler more in the US so about $600-800. Again, if you can find one. They do appear on ebay every now and again but I would suggest you contact some industrial machine suppliers and servicers if you really are interested.

[jake431]

Based on the fact that only Self Edge and BiG operate a chainstitching machine in the US out of all the possible retailers I would have to think the cost for a machine is short of astronomical - but not by much. I believe you are from Chicago (as am I) so I would applaud having a go-to-chainstitcher here in the Windy City but I think it's a lot more expensive than you think.

Gordon or Kiya should have more info...

I think part of why it is so uncommon is that most people don't care. Even though a lot of us denimheads are particular, most people couldn't give a shit. It's probably not economical to offer chainstitching unless as part of a specialty store or a stand alone side enterprise.

In the UK, a vintage union special chain stitcher would run you about £600, fully serviced, if you can find one. I suspect it would be roughly half that or perhaps a littler more in the US so about $600-800. Again, if you can find one. They do appear on ebay every now and again but I would suggest you contact some industrial machine suppliers and servicers if you really are interested.

$600-800 doesn't sound too bad honestly. It's not the type of investment I'd be making looking to turn a profit. I just hate having to ship stuff all over the place. It's insane to me that Chicago doesn't have that service anyway.

-Jake

[coleslawyum]

A brand new chain stitch machine from Juki, I think would cost about $5000. A vintage Union Special hemming machine is probably be the better bet, but the prices are all over the place, some costing around $2000-$3000, but so rare to find.

I remember looking for one and being shocked at the price. But these are machines that should last a lifetime and in the long run well worth the money.

[jake431]

A brand new chain stitch machine from Juki, I think would cost about $5000. A vintage Union Special hemming machine is probably be the better bet, but the prices are all over the place, some costing around $2000-$3000, but so rare to find.

I remember looking for one and being shocked at the price. But these are machines that should last a lifetime and in the long run well worth the money.

$2000-3000 is too rich for my blood (unless my blood is considerably enriched by winning the lottery or a death of a forgotten relative who happened to be wealthy and leave it to me for some obscure reason etc etc).

The Singer Quantumlock 14T967DC from earlier in this thread says it chainstitches, and is only $700 - does it chainstitch in some way that is different from older vintage machines? I dimly recall a thread a while back where someone said they had a machine that chainstitched but that it was a different stitch than the old Union etc machines.

-Jake

[coleslawyum]

Well seeing the Union Special work at first hand, it makes the chunkiest chain stitch I've ever seen.(depends on the cotton thread too) Some cheaper machines can't make the stitch tight enough, where the loop is a little bit large. At BiG, they use the manufacturer's cotton thread, so it matches up nicely with the rest of the jeans.

I remember seeing someone posted a picture of the cheaper machine chain stitch. It looked a little sloppy and had a really large cuff, like almost a half inch. It might have been the user's skill, but it looked terrible. If only there was a way to try it out first.

[who8mahrice]

Do you guys know which Union Special models do chainstitches? I just did a quick search on eBay and around 4 Union Specials came up, all different models though. I don't really know anything about sewing/stitching so their descriptions didn't really help me. 4 needle, 12 needle, etc.

[jake431]

Do you guys know which Union Special models do chainstitches? I just did a quick search on eBay and around 4 Union Specials came up, all different models though. I don't really know anything about sewing/stitching so their descriptions didn't really help me. 4 needle, 12 needle, etc.

I would also really like to know this information.

-Jake

[raWorkshop]

Trying to navigate the world of industrial sewing machines is nearly impossible for the uninitiated, there are just too many serial numbers, variations and uncertainties. Union Specials are industrial machines and unlike domestic machines are not self contained or portable. The machine bit (which you see sitting around at places like BiG and looks like a domestic machine) is known as the Head. Industrials also require a dedicated table, to which is bolted the electric motor. Despite the name the point of industrial machines is not strength, it's speed. They are 200 pound fucking thread chainsaws strapped to work benches, but even if you get one there's no garuntee it'll be set up for doing large amounts 14-21 oz twill fabric. Hems aren't that big a deal but it's just too much hassle.

Generally, industrials are set up in the sweatshops to do one job or one particular stitch for everything that comes through. That's why you'll see things like "belt loop attachers" or "bag closers" because every machine is dedicated to one step of the process. Taylorist production in action.

Keep your eyes peeled on ebay though, there are one or two old school Singer models that go for under 100 every so often. There's even one model that uses a single thread, which is authentic chainstitching. Even the Union Special "chainstitch" is technically a double overlock stitch which is thankfully much stronger.

Edit: but don't let me stop you go crazy http://www.sewingmachinery.com/used/usc-flatbed.html

[morse9443]

http://www.sewvacdirect.com/singer14t967.html

Hardcore fancy stitch machine.

I'd be interested in seeing if this machine can make as quality of a chainstitch as the Union Special I saw in BIG. If so, makes me wonder if those old clunkers are just for fashion and show, and offer no practical advantage over the....Quantumlock!! Somebody be the guiney pig and get one.

[who8mahrice]

Thanks for the information raWorkshop, +rep for the little amount I can give haha.

[indigo_junkie]

I started a thread a while ago showing the chainstitch from a Bernina Funlock 009DCC. The other low cost option was a Janomie 1000CP Coverpro and a Brother 2340CV Coverstitch. They range from about $600 - $1200 new. I got my Bernina for about $400 used in good condition. You can see the results of my work here:

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=44103

The main problem I had with the machine wasn't the stitch. The main problem was that the tension on the machine was too low to get it tight enough to make that nice roping effect that we all like on the hems of our jeans. I know. Because I chainstitched my Denimes a while back, two hot washes and the hems have just stayed the same. The chainstitched hems on my Sams from 2nd have puckered up like [insert sexual euphemism here].

The machine that everyone is looking for is the Union Special 43200G. No one has it. I've been dicked around by can't remember how many industrial suppliers. Price range from about $2500 to $3200. For a 30+year old machine, forgettaboutit. You can buy a brand new bag closing machine for the same price. Everyone has pointed me to the mahine US replaced the 43200G with, which is the 63900G. But that's a lockstitch which is no good. The Juki replacement for the 43200G machine is this one:

The CS111H02. It's a chainstitcher with a cylinder head and a circular hemming attachment (so no more broken hands, which Gordon could probably attest to). No one has that machine anywhere. It's harder to find than the 43200G, because it wasn't a good seller and everyone was using the 63900, so there wasn't any point in mass producing it.

Seiko makes a machine called the DCN:

Which you could probably rigg with the downturn hemming attachment from the 63900:

I'm still asking around, but the cost is starting to look stratospheric atm. So that's a bust. I'm still looking around though.

[jake431]

I really really appreciate that post. Even if it's bad news (well, costly news).

-Jake

[raWorkshop]

Head only, but I found this online today. This is the model I mentioned earlier

http://cgi.ebay.com/Industrial-Sewing-Machine-Singer-Model-240-chain-st_W0QQitemZ180245418887QQihZ008QQcategoryZ26256QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Guest kyotousa]

where can I ship my jeans to get it chainstitched?

Or maybe someone knows a local tailor that would do a good job in Austin or Houston?

[indigo_junkie]

Head only, but I found this online today. This is the model I mentioned earlier

http://cgi.ebay.com/Industrial-Sewing-Machine-Singer-Model-240-chain-st_W0QQitemZ180245418887QQihZ008QQcategoryZ26256QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This machine was originally used to sew the ribbons onto hats. I can't remember if this machine was a two thread chainstitch (what US called a double lockstitch) or a single thread chainstitch (which is what US used to call chainstitch). I can't see where the locking thread would go on this machine. Could be a single thread machine. A lot of the old machines are single thread chainstitchers.

[Guest kyotousa]

Is there a BiG website? what's the full name, I can't find it through google.

[kiya]

Is there a BiG website? what's the full name, I can't find it through google.

www.blueingreensoho.com

[Guest kyotousa]

www.blueingreensoho.com

thx...haha i am in tx...but I visit S.Cal often (Orange County area)...I guess the best bet would be ship to Self Edge.

[andewhall]

Good thread! Pun intended. I am currently on a machine buy up, and have been searching for machines for the last 6 months or so. The 43200G is a nice machine indeed, if you do a google search it mainly comes up with repro Japanese cats, haha.....I think Japan has them all! I have a sneaky suspicion these "longways" mounted machines were originally bag closers....then they thought, hey leg openings are like the top of a bag, lets just finish them with those union bag closers, faster and with a 401 style stitch, no thread changes and they come with a folder-feeder. If you look at the modern bag closers, they are all longways mounted like overlockers etc. Quite hard to find good history, manufacturing info on the net. Obviously back then there would have been no thought about roping, fading etc. I guess roping can be broken down to shrinkage and movement of the 401 chainstitch, 100% cotton thread and shrink to fit denim etc. Also, and I think this is a big factor...is the way the folder finishes the turn up, as it's going through the folder it twists the double turn up....so if you look at the inside hem's of your jeans the seams won't line up exactly. Of course you don't need the longways mounted machine or the folder, flatbed and your hands works just as good to....maybe even better as you can exaggerate the twist in the hem even more than the folder will......it's just not that feasible on your hands if you are doing hundreds of pairs. You can mount folders on most industrial machines, there is always screw holes in front or to the side.

Gen 1 43200G: Black body

Gen 2 43200G: Grey body

[andewhall]

These are awesome! Belt loop machine, cuts and all.

Nice flatbed Juki, twin needle 401 chainstitch.

Union flatbed 56000 series.

[andewhall]

Stitch types: May be interesting for some to read, maybe not, ha. The first mechanical sewing machines made used the 101 chainstitch....then the revolutionary rotary bobbin, underthread machine was invented, 301 lockstitch changed the face of clothing manufacture.

101 (Chainstitch): Stitch formed by a needle thread passing through the material and interlooping with itself on the underside of the seam with the assistance of a spreader.

103 (Blindstitch): Stitch is formed with one needle thread which interloops with itself on the top surface of the material. The thread passes through the top ply and horizontally through portions of the bottom ply without penetrating the full depth.

301 (Lockstitch): Stitch formed by a needle thread passing through the material and interlocking with a bobbin thread with the threads meeting in the center of the seam. Stitch looks the same on the top as well as the bottom.

301 (Twin Needle Lockstitch): Same s 301 except that two rows of stitch are formed. Typical needle spacing is 1/4" but the machines are available from 3/16" up to 1".

304 (Zig Zag): Stitch is formed with a needle and bobbin thread that are set in the center of the seam and form a symmetrical zig zag pattern. Also used to identify bartacking and lockstitch buttonsewing and buttonholing.

401 (Chainstitch): Stitch formed by 1 needle thread passing through the material and interlooped with 1 looper thread that is set on the underside of the seam.

401 (Twin Needle Chainstitch): Stitch formed by 2 needle threads passing through the material and interlooped with 2 looper threads, forming 2 independent rows of stitch set on the underside of the seam.

406 (Bottom Coverstitch): Stitch formed by 2 needle threads passing through the material and interlooping with 1 looper thread with the stitch set on the underside of the seam. Looper thread interlooped between needle threads, providing seam coverage on the bottom side.

407 (Bottom Coverstitch): Stitch formed by 3 needle threads passing through the material and interlacing with 1 looper thread with the stitch set on the underside of the seam. Looper thread is interlooped between needle threads, providing seam coverage on the bottom side only.

503 (Overedge): Stitch formed by 1 needle thread and 1 looper thread forming a purl on the edge of the seam. For Serging or Blindhemming only.

504 (Overedge): Stitch formed by 1 needle thread and 2 looper threads forming a purl on the edge of the seam. For Overedge Seaming and Serging.

505 (Overedge): Stitch formed by 1 needle thread and 2 looper threads forming a double purl on the edge of the seam. For Serging only.

512 (Overedge): Stitch formed with 2 needle threads and 2 looper threads with the looper threads forming a purl on the edge of the seam. 512-right needle only enters the upper looper loop. This stitch type will not chain-off as well as the 514 Stitch.

514 (Overedge): Stitch formed with 2 needle threads and 2 looper threads with the looper threads forming a purl on the edge of the seam. 514-both needles enter the upper looper loop. Preferred over the 512 Stitch because it chains-off better.

516 (Safety Stitch): 5-thread safety stitch. Combination stitch consisting of a single-needle chainstitch (401) and a 3-thread overedge stitch (504) that are formed simultaneously.

602 (Coverstitch): Stitch is formed with 2-needle threads, a top cover thread and a bottom looper thread.

605 (Coverstitch): Stitch is formed with 3-needle threads, a top cover thread and a bottom looper thread.

607 (Coverstitch): Stitch is formed with 4-needle threads, a top cover thread and a bottom looper thread. Preferred over 606 stitch because the machine are easier to maintain.

[jake431]

So, stitch type wise, what is the chainstitch that is found on jean hems? 101? 401?

Thanks for posting - very informative.

-Jake

[indigo_junkie]

401 stitch is what you want. That 56300 looks like the one selling at Peter's Warehouse in Melbourne. Similar to the one that Gordon used at BiG before they bought up all those 43200s. The only reason why I didn't pick it up was because it was a flat-bed. You can't rig the down-turn hemmer attachment from a 63900 onto it. Plus, I don't know if they would only sell me the head, getting the whole motor/table interstate is not cheap (neither is just the head. I still have to source the table and motor in Sydney). What I wanted was a cylinder head single needle 401 stitch machine. Most of the 43200 in the US were either sold to Japan, or shipped off to garment factories in either Afganistan or India. The few remaining are priced so high, it's probably worth buying a ex-demo bag closer like a 80600 and rigging that up. Then you'd have parts handy and wouldn't have to deal with a 30+year old machine.

[andewhall]

Nice Indigojunkie. I know what you mean, that particular hemmer attachment as seen on the 43200 is really nice because of the releasing knee lever, super fast. I personally prefer the flatbed, as you can do more with it, you can't do much with the 43200 style except hem jeans....and bags. With the flatbed you can screw in a downturn hemmer when needed or just do it by hand. Have you purchased anything from Peters W before? I assume they would sell the head only, cheaper shipping... then you could just pick up a cheaper industrial plain sewer locally, chuck it in the Holden then steal the table and motor. Ive seen loads of cheap industrial machines where the head is fairly knackered, but the motor would still be ok...like $50 bucks.

[scoon0224]

They are 200 pound fucking thread chainsaws strapped to work benches

I never thought anyone could make a sewing machine sound so fucking badass.

I didn't want one before, but now I do.

I'll paint flames on the side, then I'll christen it with a bottle of moonshine.