Sugar Cane Denim

[julian-wolf]

^ Used to really like Denimio, but their site’s been impossible to use for the last couple of years. Honestly, at this point, I’d rather just pay shipping than spend the time trying to navigate it (unless I’m unsure on sizing—their returns and exchange policy is much more forgiving than most other Japanese retailers’)

[kiya]

40 minutes ago, JMS said:

@Thanks_M8 Denimio is the way to go for most brands. The prices are usually the Japanese domestic price, with free shipping for purchases over ~$150 USD. Hard to beat so long as they stock what you're after! 

Never had any problems with them, even when purchasing proxy items. 

Cheers. 

Denimio is cool if you enjoy supporting a business with shady business practices who's sole purpose is to undercut retailers in Europe and North America.

[Thanks_M8]

^^ same! Really wanted to try 'em out a few times, but something always came in the way anf now the site is just a pain in the arse. Really keen on the second hand market tbh. One man's trash and so on

[kiya]

1 minute ago, Thanks_M8 said:

^^ same! Really wanted to try 'em out a few times, but something always came in the way anf now the site is just a pain in the arse. Really keen on the second hand market tbh. One man's trash and so on

Because the brand has been around for so long with the same models you can generally find barely worn pairs on eBay pretty regularly. 

[Thanks_M8]

^ Ebay, yahoo, mercari. Mix of sizes and models in many varieties. And if you want something brand new retail ist still an option. Also very keen on the aspect of not “wasting“ the clothes and so on.

[julian-wolf]

Plenty of brand new jeans on Yahoo & Mercari, too, for that matter, if you’re willing to wait for your size to pop up…

[Maynard Friedman]

Yahoo, eBay, Mer-ca-ri
He looks like a still, that man is dressed to kill...

[JMS]

59 minutes ago, kiya said:

Denimio is cool if you enjoy supporting a business with shady business practices who's sole purpose is to undercut retailers in Europe and North America.

Let's unpack this a bit.

Isn't the revolutionary aspect of capitalism precisely the act of aiming to undercut your competitors? This capitalist-ethic apologist stuff you speak of makes my head spin. Am I, as the consumer, supposed to spend extra money (sometimes as much as 30-40% more) just because it's ethical to support a business in my own country? Isn't purchasing from a domestic retailer sign enough of my support? What's more, I am invited by the retailer to justify away their higher costs as some second-order act of ethically sound solidarity? We live in a world of globalism. I am buying made in Japan jeans... from Japan. Denimio isn't the only business out there that sells stuff below SE's prices, and I can't imagine that every one of them is "shady". 

Don't get me wrong, I patronize SE when I can and y'all's customer service is absolutely tops, but to imply that the consumer should even enjoy spending extra money because such gestures are ethical? 

We approach a dangerous ethics when such ethical imparatives themselves become a luxury commodity, available only to those with disposable income. No? 

[cusswords]

I don't know how they're doing it now but I know in the past Denimio was purposefully undervaluing their packages so they wouldn't get caught in customs. Practically everyone on the denim subreddit was telling other people that Denimio would mark their package as a gift if requested. You as the consumer can do whatever you want, but if Denimio was skirting around customs law to undercut their competition, then yes they are a shady business. 

 

Personally I won't shop with Denimio because of their past behavior and how they contribute little beyond hype and marketing to the denim community, and I'm disappointed to see just how large of a customer base these tactics have cultivated. Also, their web site is hot garbage. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by cusswords

[kiya]

1 hour ago, JMS said:

Let's unpack this a bit.

Isn't the revolutionary aspect of capitalism precisely the act of aiming to undercut your competitors? This capitalist-ethic apologist stuff you speak of makes my head spin. Am I, as the consumer, supposed to spend extra money (sometimes as much as 30-40% more) just because it's ethical to support a business in my own country? Isn't purchasing from a domestic retailer sign enough of my support? What's more, I am invited by the retailer to justify away their higher costs as some second-order act of ethically sound solidarity? We live in a world of globalism. I am buying made in Japan jeans... from Japan. Denimio isn't the only business out there that sells stuff below SE's prices, and I can't imagine that every one of them is "shady". 

My comment about them being "shady" wasn't connected to their business model of undercutting European and North American retailers.  

They don't have dealer accounts with many of the brands they sell.  When you buy a Sugar Cane jean from Denimio they go and buy it from a Japanese retailer who is back-dooring the product at a discounted retail price (which is 100% against their sales contract with Toyo) and then Denimio is reselling that jean to the end-user who ordered it through their site.  They've got the products up on their site as if they're authorized dealers.  Trust me when I say that the heads of a company like Toyo are less than pleased about what Denimio is doing.

Edited March 16, 2021 by kiya

[julian-wolf]

^ I’ve seen that alleged a number of times in the past, and I’ve never really been sure how it fits in with their liberal return / exchange policy and their extremely fast shipping. Without keeping a decent amount of stock on hand, how is it that they can so consistently ship within hours of orders being placed? What do they do with returned goods from brands that they allegedly don’t keep in stock in the first place? How does it benefit them to buy from a middle man rather than direct from official distributors, given that their retail prices are generally in line with domestic RRP?

I don’t have a horse in the race one way or the other—most of my clothes come from the second-hand market—but the whole thing seems a little far fetched to me

Edited March 16, 2021 by julian-wolf

[kiya]

17 minutes ago, julian-wolf said:

^ I’ve seen that alleged a number of times in the past, and I’ve never really been sure how it fits in with their liberal return / exchange policy and their extremely fast shipping. Without keeping a decent amount of stock on hand, how is it that they can so consistently ship within hours of orders being placed? What do they do with returned goods from brands that they allegedly don’t keep in stock in the first place? How does it benefit them to buy from a middle man rather than direct from official distributors, given that their retail prices are generally in line with domestic RRP?

I don’t have a horse in the race one way or the other—most of my clothes come from the second-hand market—but the whole thing seems a little far fetched to me

It's all about volume, they move so many units that it doesn't matter if something comes back, they just add it back into their stock and hold onto it till somebody orders it again.  The reason they have to buy back-doored product from other retail stores is because many Japanese brands refuse to do business with them.   

[julian-wolf]

Makes sense I guess. Can you shed some light on why the brands or official distributors would refuse to do business with them in the first place, though? Seems sort of like a vicious cycle. (Understandable, also, if it’s something you’d prefer not to comment on publicly)

edit: Also still doesn’t explain how fast they’re able to ship

Edited March 16, 2021 by julian-wolf

[discwork]

Interesting stuff. I was curious how Denimio operates. It sounds like they're essentially a gray market dealer, no? Similar to a gray market watch dealer like Jomashop?

[kiya]

1 hour ago, discwork said:

Interesting stuff. I was curious how Denimio operates. It sounds like they're essentially a gray market dealer, no? Similar to a gray market watch dealer like Jomashop?

They're a unique store because it's a combination of a gray market dealer and a legit dealer (because they actually have some legit accounts with Oni, Momotari, etc..).  I don't know of a single other store in the world where they're an authorized dealer of brands plus they're selling back-doored product alongside those other brands.

[JDelage]

4 hours ago, julian-wolf said:

Can you shed some light on why the brands or official distributors would refuse to do business with them in the first place, though?

A brand like Toyo might want to reserve their distribution deals to US/EU dealers for US/EU customers and Japan dealers for their Japanese market base. A Jp-based dealer focusing on the int'l customer base throws a wrench in that arrangement. The existence of Denimio completely undermines their int'l dealer network.

I find the idea that Denimio buys their stuff from other Japan-based dealers a bit difficult to believe though. I suppose it's possible depending on the delta between wholesale and tax-free price.

Edited March 17, 2021 by JDelage

[julian-wolf]

Many, many domestic Japanese retailers who stock Toyo ship overseas

[JDelage]

Yes, but I suppose they mostly are targeting local customers. Denimio is both big and 100% focused on the int'l. It's a common issue with global consumer products. This being said there might be another explanation.

[julian-wolf]

That’sa fair point. I guess it just seems weird to me that the two would be treated differently by brands or distributors—if the store’s selling jeans internationally, they have the potential to cut into international retailers’ market shares whether or not that’s their main focus

I’m very much not used to thinking about this sort of economics, though

[Iron Horse]

Back when I was at Heddels we ran a piece on this:

https://www.heddels.com/2017/04/of-price-and-yen-the-effects-of-japanese-retailers-selling-abroad/

tl;dr Japanese brands with overseas retailers have, in some cases, long-lasting relationships with them, but if everyone that was scared off by Rakuten flocked to Denimio and OD instead, said retailers would no longer sell enough to justify carrying those brands and the business relationships would wither. At least that's what I gather.

Interestingly, I'm not sure I've ever seen Denimio give an interview on the subject; has anyone else? 

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Just to add, Togged (as the UK/EU importer) asking 270 GBP = 40.900 Yen for a pair of Sugar Cane 1947 that costs 16.280 Yen in Japan is no less shady.
Like seriously, at that mark-up they could buy at Japanese retail price and sell with a profit but we all know they probably buy at wholsesale price which makes the mark-up even more ridiculous.
Under those circumstences I have no remorse "undercutting" the official importer.

Edited March 17, 2021 by beautiful_FrEaK

[Maynard Friedman]

True b_F, in fact you would be completely undermining your own economic interests by buying from the authorised UK/EU dealer!

[Double 0 Soul]

I could never understand the Togged/Niro SC retail/distributor model, they might have sold some units back on the mid 00's before Rakuten stores accepted PP and credit cards registered outside JP were often refused but since 2008 i'm sure they've hardly sold any units. If you check their ebay account they've sold 3 pairs of Sugarcane jeans in the last 7 years and those SC Flying Skulls and Logo tees have been in stock at Togged since 2006/7, they used to be £49 (which i thought was expensive) but the price has crept up to £114 i'm mean ffs! if you have boxes of Tee's in stock for 15yrs you need to seriously reconsider your business model....

 

I bought a pair Hawaii's back in 2008 from Triads, they were marked down to £96 in the sale, i called the store to ask them to measure numerous pairs and was informed that they bought them from Togged, they didn't sell any at RRP (surprise surprise) so they marked them down in the Jan sale... so Togged can still offer SC at reasonable discount to retailers rather than SoR just not at a reasonable price to their (non existent) customers so it's not like they're even being held ransom by a shitty outdated contract.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Double 0 Soul

[Duke Mantee]

4 hours ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

Just to add, Togged (as the UK/EU importer) asking 270 GBP = 40.900 Yen for a pair of Sugar Cane 1947 that costs 16.280 Yen in Japan is no less shady.
Like seriously, at that mark-up they could buy at Japanese retail price and sell with a profit but we all know they probably buy at wholsesale price which makes the mark-up even more ridiculous.
Under those circumstences I have no remorse "undercutting" the official importer.

Same scenario at SoaS - albeit different brands

[bartlebyyphonics]

^ I wonder which [chuckles]

[lee porter]

I’m glad we have denimio to use why wouldn’t anyone who likes Japanese jeans not? That’s ridiculous 

[Double 0 Soul]

Ive never even looked at the Denimio site

Ive got nothing against them as such ive just never noticed the gap which needed to be filled by their service.

 

[Duke Mantee]

3 hours ago, bartlebyyphonics said:

^ I wonder which [chuckles]

Nearly all of them 

[Duke Mantee]

41 minutes ago, lee porter said:

I’m glad we have denimio to use why wouldn’t anyone who likes Japanese jeans not? That’s ridiculous 

Sometimes folk here (me included) can get a bit self righteous about the provenance of their clothes, and sometimes retailers will be equally sanctimonious at feeling their business is being undermined by activities they themselves would shun.

Of course, the above only applies to the specific bits the retailers or customers choose to moralise about and not to the bits it’s convenient to turn a blind eye to.

So if you want to buy from Denimio then have at it.

[Pedro]

A “bit” self righteous?

There are a couple of members on here that are the very definition of arrogance.

The cautionary Greek tale of Narcissus is obviously lost on more than one frequent poster.