Kyoto: disappointing

[coinlockerbaby]

So I have a question. Since this forum is borderline obsessed with all things Japanese: did anyone else find Kyoto a let down?

Ive been living in Japan for 3 years and everyone -EVERYONE - has been telling me I have to go to Kyoto - that its so cultured, so historic etc etc.

The thing is - my mum and brother both came to Japan to see me, and both of them stopped by the city. Both of them returned rather unimpressed.

This year I finally made my own trip and I have to agree - its really not that great.

I mean Kyoto DOES have lots of interesting places to visit. But every cool little shrine is in the middle of a block of 7-11s and gas stations. Its not like stepping into the 17th century or anything. You really have to lower your expectations of an allegeldly "historic" city to enjoy it. Basically, its been ruined.

When Japanese people talk about beautiful or historic it is, they are talking about very small bits of it that are scattered through an otherwise bland, even ugly, metropolis. There is no feeling of being in a historic city. The streetscapes are toally blahhhh.....

And yet, its crowded with tourists everywhere.

Having been to other so-called "cultural centres" in Europe and Latin America, and even Australia(!!!) I have to say that they beat Kyoto hands down in atmosphere .

Such a shame! I mean - go. Its interesting compared to other Japanese cities (not saying a lot). But its not really world class.

Thoughts?

[Pandemonium]

Having been to other so-called "cultural centres" in Europe and Latin America, and even Australia(!!!) I have to say that they beat Kyoto hands down in atmosphere .

what the fuck?

australia's been a western country for 200 years since its colonisation.

[coinlockerbaby]

...and..?

Sadly, they still take care of their culture better than Kyoto does

[sybaritical]

This is a wind up, right?

[CityHunter]

Agreed.

Out of all the cities in Japan that I've visited, Kyoto was at the bottom of the list. I'm not saying it's bad...

I duuno. Call me uncultured, but all the shrines and castles looked the same. I mean they are cool and all, but I started to get tired of them. When I went, it was pretty dead so it was kinda depressing. It was nice to get out of the "city", but I would take Tokyo/Osaka over Kyoto anyday.

Maybe I'll hit it up next time and see if my opinion changes.

(Real reason I didn't like Kyoto: there was no BAPE store kekekekekekek)

[fre-co]

I guess it all depends what you are looking for and if you have any idea about Japanese culture. There are many beautiful places in and around Kyoto... you obviously didn't manage to find them or didn't appreciate them.

Cityhunter, In terms of beauty Osaka is a hole. I hope you were joking.

[englandmj7]

Cityhunter, In terms of beauty Osaka is a hole. I hope you were joking.

This really depends on what you consider 'beautiful'. I agree with CityHunter in that I vastly preferred Osaka/Tokyo to Kyoto. I was bored out of my fucking mind in Kyoto.

[fre-co]

Well, beauty when used to describe a city surely means aesthetically pleasing, scenery, places of visual and cultural interest, no? Osaka has little to offer there compared with Kyoto.

Saying you prefer osaka and tokyo to kyoto, surely you mean in terms of things to do and shopping? In which case, yes I agree.

Like I said in my first post it depends what you are looking for, ie: if you want to see the old Japan and and are interested in the old culture and archetecture, or you want to go shopping and snap a few convenient pictures of shrines.

Also the cuisine is very different in these cities and Kyoto has it's own traditional, particular cuisine and style. Many people flock to the local restaurants for this.

[chad]

i found kyoto breathtaking.

the first time i went it was adhoc and i was zig zagging all over and it was a lot of travel and not a lot of sites.

the second time i was there with a japanese friend and we spent a fair amount of time in one of the guide centers finding out the best places to see in 2 days. there were incredible walking routes mapped out going from temple to temple winding through the historic old parts of town. going on some of the suggested walking routes saved so much travel hassle and meandering down old little streets was simply a pleasure.

kyoto is a big city with 100's of sites spread all over, so it really makes sense to plan your visit.

also, i lived in japan for 3 years so i pretty much had my fair dose of big cities, so having an escape to kyoto was both inspiring and relaxing. if you were only in japan for a week you can still see great temples in major cities so i would probably skip kyoto.

[aho]

coinlockerbaby, I agree with you that when I first got to Kyoto I was initially disappointed at how "modernized" a city it had apparently become, lacking what my image was of a traditional Japan. But having lived there for about a year I started to realize that there indeed was so many traditional aspects of Japan spread throughout the city in the little nooks and crannies if you or someone who could guide you knows where to look. I think this is what makes Kyoto a really special place, the blending of new and old. I agree that all the temples, shrines and castles can get redundant at times but that really depends on what you are looking for, as stated above. When you were there did you check out the whole Higashiyama area? I feel that it has a more traditional feel (no gas stations, etc.) than some areas.

As for shopping, Kyoto does have a pretty rounded selection with all the usual stores one might find on zozo (beams, hare, etc.) and btw CityHunter, there IS a BAPE store in Kyoto! It's on sanjo between Karasuma and Kawaramachi dori...

[coinlockerbaby]

I think some people have misunderstood my point. Im not saying that some of the temples and shrines arent beautiful and fascinating. They are. But the city isnt. When I hear a city is a "historical centre" I expect whole districts of finely preserved buildings. Kyoto doesnt have that. It has some preserved shrines, which are, as I say - in the midst of service stations and convenience stores.

I appreciate the point that there is trasitional culture here is you know where to look- the blend of old and modern - but that is hardly how Kyoto is generally sold. Its usually held up to be a window onto old-time Japan, a bastion of traditional culture...and its not, really.

There are remnants of traditional culture, but thats all they are - the remnants of something which is largely gone.

Compare Kyoto to cities like Salvador in Brazil - where you can walk down streets unchanged for hundreds of years and see its unique culture thrillingly alive on the every corner. Or Rome with its many old monuments. Or Barcelona with its Gothic Quarter. Or even The Rocks in Sydney. Kyoto doesnt have anything like that.

Everything that is worth seeing - and some things certainly are - is isolated.

[sybaritical]

The power of energy of Kyoto is unique. You have to get out and about because it isn't as linear ( and that definitiely isn't the right term) in it's presentation of Japanese culture as other places ... I think there's better places to visit castles, shrines and temples ( Nikko, Kamakura, Himeji or even Nara a little way away) but the moments of personal peace and reflection that I found in Kyoto resonated with me longer somehow.

[insomaniac]

I'm bummed out to hear that many of you did not enjoy Kyoto as much as you had expected:(

As coinlockerbaby had stated, it is true; Kyoto has gone through quite a big modernization in the past decade or so and has been losing its once praised beauty as an old capitol of Japan. But they do have a law in Kyoto city that prohobits any commercial logo or store front to look "too modernized". I am not sure if you noticed, but most corporate chain logos have different color scheme or different style to obey this law. Also the city law controls the number larger stores in the city limits (which ironically resulted in many smaller stores like convenience stores to open up left and right. I just found out on Wiki that Kyoto has the highest Conbini-people ratio).

I think the biggest problem Kyoto faced was how they failed to preserve its city as a whole. I think this is why every monument there seem so isolated and detatched from one another, which results in Kyoto seeming like a 'butchered old city'. I think this was a price Japan had to pay for its growth as a country after WW2. We gained a lot and lost more.

Though I read an editorial recently regarding the modernization of Kyoto that went something like this. "Kyoto is now not only the old capitol (Kyo: a land where the emperor reside / To (miyako); capitol), but also a capitol of today (today in Japanese is also pronounced 'kyo')". With Kyoto Protocol, Kyoto has spread its name in a different way as well, I think the future for this city is pretty exciting...

PS- as for those who found Kyoto boring... I think when you are unfamiliar with that millenium of Japanese history (which most aren't), the historical monuments can be dull. My favorite is Sanju-Sangen-do where 1001 faces of kannon has different faces where you can find one reminisces the one you long.

[coinlockerbaby]

Kyoto has the highest Conbini-people ratio

Hahaha! I knew it!

Insomniac, I think you make some good points.But I disagree that Japan had to tear down its heritage to develop. France and Italy didnt.

Its sad and ironic that during the war the US didnt bomb Kyoto because experts begged them to preserve its valuable history. But look at it now! Its been (mostly) destroyed by the Japanese anyway.

But I feel like a lot of people in Japan like to pretend its still beautiful. How can you? Aret they blind? Its like a mass-deception thing going, everyone says "its beautiful, its beautiful" but you know what people - the Emperor is not wearing any clothes!

[sybaritical]

Kyoto has gone through quite a big modernization in the past decade or so and has been losing its once praised beauty as an old capitol of Japan.

This may explain my rose tinted specs ... I haven't been there for 7 years ...

[insomaniac]

had to change, is definitely not the word I should have used. It was not necessary.

I know that the mayor of Kyoto fter the war tried his best to preserve the city as a whole for few decades, but later on the city was pushed to go through modernization and industrialization by the government. "Kyoto survived the war" is a myth; they have been bombed a few times during the war, and as a result they had to tear down and build more accessble streets to accomedate the access of the military and its citizens.

When I tell my friends that Kyoto is a beautiful city, I don't think I ever considered Kyoto being beautiful as a city, but meant more in the line of "Kyoto still has a lot of traditional beauty in it". I never really thought about that until I read this thread, so thank you for giving me a different perspective on the matter; I shall choose my words wisely from now on:)

I think in Japan, where most people reside in larger cities that went through a modern/industrial overhaul, I think Kyoto seems as though it has preserved its beauty better than most. Of course as stated, compared to the rest of the world the job was poorly done. Hopefully Japan have learnt its lesson and try a better job at preserving its history and tradition better... 'conbini' isn't always appreciated.

[DaBestSpoona]

This year I finally made my own trip and I have to agree - its really not that great.

I mean Kyoto DOES have lots of interesting places to visit. But every cool little shrine is in the middle of a block of 7-11s and gas stations. Its not like stepping into the 17th century or anything. You really have to lower your expectations of an allegeldly "historic" city to enjoy it. Basically, its been ruined.

When Japanese people talk about beautiful or historic it is, they are talking about very small bits of it that are scattered through an otherwise bland, even ugly, metropolis. There is no feeling of being in a historic city. The streetscapes are toally blahhhh.....

And yet, its crowded with tourists everywhere.

Honestly what did you exactly do in Kyoto?

[herpsky]

i bet you would have liked kyoto if you could bust a nut...or two...or three

[cyberPUNK]

I think some people have misunderstood my point. Im not saying that some of the temples and shrines arent beautiful and fascinating. They are. But the city isnt. When I hear a city is a "historical centre" I expect whole districts of finely preserved buildings. Kyoto doesnt have that. It has some preserved shrines, which are, as I say - in the midst of service stations and convenience stores.

i'd suggest going down to gion. it's basically a whole district that's been preserved, geisha and all. how long did you spent in kyoto? i'd recommend a couple weeks in order to form any sort of opinion.

and i agree with aho, osaka is a hole compared to kyoto, or anything else for that matter.

[aho]

and i agree with aho, osaka is a hole compared to kyoto, or anything else for that matter.

actually, just to be sure, that wasn't me that said it....i love Osaka's grittiness

[corporategrunt]

It may be hard to take the historical sites for just what you see without knowing/studying the contexts

to some Kinkau-ji just may appear as a gaudy, 90s Versace-esque building, but when one puts it in contrast with Ginkaku-ji, the contrast is not only obvious in phyisical difference, but it is intersting how the idea of beauty changed within such a short time period, and the economical factors that went into play...

Kiyomizu just may be an old temple with a wooden platform and a pretty nice view, but to think of the difficulty of building such thing back in the day, and the way it must have startled the mass....not sure if many of you are familiar with the old japanese saying: "To jump off the platform of Kiyomizu" which means taking a drastic action in life, making a big plunge into a significant commitment...it's something every school children learn growing up...and when you finally get to the ledge and look down, to finally understand what it means is a cool discovery. Also, if you familiarize with the historical figures who walked about the same streets (yes many of it is paved with concrete) it is still pretty cool.

I walked in the bathroom at Thompkins recently, it was pretty nasty as public bathrooms go and my friends who were waiting for me outside were questioning my sanity. But all i was thinking was the possibility of Lou Reed in his Velvet days being fucked up on heroin and possibly wandering into the same bathroom and taking a piss just like I was...there are millions of people who worship the guy, and probably dream about walking through downtown New York imagining Lou Reed walking the same streets at some point in time. Gotta be thankful for the opportunities and options.

[cyberPUNK]

actually, just to be sure, that wasn't me that said it....i love Osaka's grittiness

ah, sorry about the confusion.

i'll admit though, osaka does have some redeeming qualities, i.e. takoyaki and amemura.

[theLorax]

maybe its just because im an animal lover, but the deer park alone made me love kyoto.

it was also the place where i finally found a handcrafted wooden puzzle box.

it was such a different vibe there. i wish i could be there right now.

[coinlockerbaby]

Wait...you mean the deer park in Nara?

[thewindsong]

what so good about old japan anyway? japan was nothing before the meiji restoration.

[RockTheVote]

well.. when you go to Euro, do you see 20+ castles in a roow on one block? No! Only a few great building from old time are kept. Most huts are tored down to build better housing. There was no western type of building since back in the day japan refused western culture for a long time. Does everything has to be like a Americanville?

[englandmj7]

well.. when you go to Euro, do you see 20+ castles in a roow on one block? No! Only a few great building from old time are kept. Most huts are tored down to build better housing. There was no western type of building since back in the day japan refused western culture for a long time. Does everything has to be like a Americanville?

Ha hahahaahh. VERY bad comparison guy.

I don't even know who you were directing that at, but have you seen some of the castles in Europe? They blow Japan out of the water and there are literally thousands upon thousands of them (France, Germany, Spain, Ireland, England, Switzerland blah blah).

They are two completely different aesthetics. Europe has vastly more 'old-world' remnants (in terms of buildings, etc.) than Japan. I don't see what this has to do with the fact that many find Kyoto boring as a whole.