New Denim Company Would love your opinions

[Matt_L_Gabriel]

bonanz, you'd be absolutely right in everything that you are saying if I was looking for identity on this forum or if I believed that SuFu as you guys seem to call it was the pinultimate niche market. But that is not the case, I simply wanted an unbiased indiscriminate list of what the people here on This forum were looking for in a pair of jeans, and to perhaps get that in one place without having to piece it together from all over the forum. I am in no means attempting to achieve the approval of simply the people here on this forum, I am attempting to achieve the approval of a vast market with different niche's and sub-niche markets. We have jeans that people on this forum would love. But we also have some that most of the people on here would hate to be honest. The key is to penetrate both markets as neither is more/less important than the other. If an indie rock band goes huge but loses it's original loyal following then no matter how many records are sold the integrity of the band's brand is bastardized and lost. But if that indie rock group never moves past that loyal following to reach a masser appeal well they die out as there loyal following ages and changes, and they die hungry. I've done my research and much of it, and maybe from this I'll take an idea I really like that I hadn't thought of and run with it, or perhaps it will serve simply as being informative. As for the brand, we will offer cuts that appeal to a wide range of people, such as jeans that exentuate accentuate the but for guys and some that flatten it, the same goes for womens. We have a back pocket design that I think defines the brand quite well and though many people on here seem to prefer it blank, I think ours is the perfect mixture of subtly and brand recognization. We use high end quality denim, a thicker polyester core thread in complimenting colors that proves to be much stronger, we have an amazing fit. But those are just some of the thing we will be offering, we also have a brand that stands for freedom, independance, youthful aggression, and I could go much deeper into this, though I didn't believe this was pertanent unto this specific thread. I have a very strong identity and my brand does as well. I was just looking to see what this forum and the people in it thought of some of the basics. But I've done this many places with many people, and you compile that all in the end and say "is this going to reach market" and you cross your fingers and hope that it does. No offense was taken at all though.

[Leeacto]

I imaine that it may be difficult for a brand to effectively reach both masses. The only brand that I can think of in the denim market that has done it to your ideal level is Levis. Obv other brands have their one pair of "high end" denim (Wrangler, Carhartt), but it's less frequent that you see a "Sufu-type" brand have a $25 pair of jeans. No one is seeing a cheap pair of SCs.

I guess a word about that would be to have primarily less expensive denim for the masses and a few nice cuts for high end people.

We use high end quality denim, a thicker polyester core thread i

If you're planning on doing this to your high end denim, don't be surprised if you lose a lot of your hardcore raw/selvage/no frills denim heads.

Quick word of advice: Before entering the market, make sure you have your lingo down pat. (Just a common Communications technique), Instead of saying "back pocket design," make sure you say "arcuate," or some people may not take you seriously.

best of luck

leeacto

[unklesteve]

I imaine that it may be difficult for a brand to effectively reach both masses.

It is, and it isn't.

I've done it before, and I can say that it's damn sure not easy. When it comes to dealing with mass market, you have to have your pricing in-line with what people are willing to pay, and have packaging/graphics/identity that is easy for them to follow.

But that said, there is a lot of personality and style that the mass market will not notice that will easily appeal to the more discerning and demanding customers. You'd be amazed at how much "niche" stuff you can hide in something, so that the true believers are in on the joke and the mass-market crowd just thinks it's the same meaningless but nifty-looking crap that Mossimo hurls all over their Target line.

At the end, it comes down to the quality of your product, your pricing, and your heart. If all three are not acting in perfect unison you might as well get your ass out now before you sink any more money in to the project. But if your intentions are pure, and you are willing to take what are generally considered to be large risks by conventional standards, you've got a tiger by the tail. And I mean that in a good way.

It can be done, it just requires a huge amount of vision and work, and the response time of a ninja. It also requires that you stay true to your vision, no matter what. Build what people want, whether they realize it or not, and then make them come to you. And once they get there, make sure they love you for it.

It's been said that diplomacy is the art of letting someone get your way. Holds true for marketing as well.

S

[Tarmac]

imho a good model of how a denim line should be presented is APC. They only have a few cuts, each in the same washes, including raw. I would guess nearly 50% of this newsgroup started out their post-diesel denimhead journey with APC but have moved on because they are looking for something a little nicer. You should do APC but higher quality. $200 vs $140 price point. More money for you!

[mr fluffernutter]

Quick word of advice: Before entering the market, make sure you have your lingo down pat. (Just a common Communications technique), Instead of saying "back pocket design," make sure you say "arcuate," or some people may not take you seriously.

an arcuate needs to have an arc or a curve to be an arcuate, so back pocket design/stitching would be correct, no?

[M.O.A]

imho a good model of how a denim line should be presented is APC. They only have a few cuts, each in the same washes, including raw. I would guess nearly 50% of this newsgroup started out their post-diesel denimhead journey with APC but have moved on because they are looking for something a little nicer. You should do APC but higher quality. $200 vs $140 price point. More money for you!

apc is successful because they are more then just denim

[Tarmac]

apc is successful because they are more then just denim

thats strange because nothing else in their line appeals to me. Ive even tried it on and the cuts are just strange, any shirt or jacket. I have no idea if I am representative, but I would still guess at least 80% of APC denim owners dont own any other APC clothing. Is there someone on sufu that loves their clothing other than denim? From what i can tell a few people have a few additional basic pieces. I have never seen a headto toe APC whore, like is so common with other labels.

[rnrswitch]

I imaine that it may be difficult for a brand to effectively reach both masses. The only brand that I can think of in the denim market that has done it to your ideal level is Levis. Obv other brands have their one pair of "high end" denim (Wrangler, Carhartt), but it's less frequent that you see a "Sufu-type" brand have a $25 pair of jeans. No one is seeing a cheap pair of SCs.

I guess a word about that would be to have primarily less expensive denim for the masses and a few nice cuts for high end people.

If you're planning on doing this to your high end denim, don't be surprised if you lose a lot of your hardcore raw/selvage/no frills denim heads.

Quick word of advice: Before entering the market, make sure you have your lingo down pat. (Just a common Communications technique), Instead of saying "back pocket design," make sure you say "arcuate," or some people may not take you seriously.

best of luck

leeacto

Actually, regarding the "arcuate" lingo. The arcuate is typically meant in reference to the Levi's back pocket design, or other jeans manufacturers that copy the "arcuate" design. Nudie by no means of the word has an arcuate on their back pocket. Maybe people wouldn't take you seriously.

[tangerine]

thats strange because nothing else in their line appeals to me. Ive even tried it on and the cuts are just strange, any shirt or jacket. I have no idea if I am representative, but I would still guess at least 80% of APC denim owners dont own any other APC clothing. Is there someone on sufu that loves their clothing other than denim? From what i can tell a few people have a few additional basic pieces. I have never seen a headto toe APC whore, like is so common with other labels.

I like a lot of their stuff, but whereas their denim seems to be reasonably priced, I feel that a lot of their other stuff seems overpriced.

I have seen a fair number of APC sweaters, jackets and shoes posted here. Most of what I have seen by APC could be considered basics but maybe I am not understanding what you mean.

[tangerine]

an arcuate needs to have an arc or a curve to be an arcuate, so back pocket design/stitching would be correct, no?

Actually, regarding the "arcuate" lingo. The arcuate is typically meant in reference to the Levi's back pocket design, or other jeans manufacturers that copy the "arcuate" design. Nudie by no means of the word has an arcuate on their back pocket. Maybe people wouldn't take you seriously.

arcuate

adj.

Having the form of a bow; curved.

I believe diamonds' broader definition is correct, and that Nudie's stitching can be correctly described as an arcuate. I also agree that back pocket design is a more inclusive term when talking about jeans in general.

[rnrswitch]

I believe diamonds' broader definition is correct, and that Nudie's stitching can be correctly described as an arcuate. I also agree that back pocket design is a more inclusive term when talking about jeans in general.

In jeans terminology the arcuate is meant mainly to refer to levis back pockets, and since others have imitated the design it can also refer to them, because they are in a sense spoofing the original. Nudies and other jeans with a back pocket design are not spoofing or paying homage to the Levis arcuate, so in the stricter denim "lingo" Nudies cannot be described as an arcuate.

Although, I could care less. I just thought the dude was trying to pull denimology, without actually knowing the denimology.

[Miles]

Use paragraph breaks in your press releases. And in your future posts as well, please.

[Sylvestre]

The only thing I haven't seen covered in this thread so far is the j-stitch, make sure it is wide/long enough. If it is too skinny the jeans look girly, and when it ends halfway too the crotch it looks terrible. It is definately a deal breaker for me.

The things I agree with that have already been said are no stretch, lowish front pockets, good back pocket size/placement (if you do a skinny jean, place the pockets lower, it always looks better). For stitching, black on black denim, the traditional gold or orange for indigo (off-white looks really cool also). Copper rivits on indigo, black or silver rivits on black.

[40ozprophet]

SuFu as you guys seem to call it was the penultimate niche market.

Second to last niche market???

[poly800rock]

thats strange because nothing else in their line appeals to me. Ive even tried it on and the cuts are just strange, any shirt or jacket. I have no idea if I am representative, but I would still guess at least 80% of APC denim owners dont own any other APC clothing. Is there someone on sufu that loves their clothing other than denim? From what i can tell a few people have a few additional basic pieces. I have never seen a headto toe APC whore, like is so common with other labels.

i wear apc almost everyday and i hate their jeans, only pair i own are the discontinued bootcut models. the pockets are too fucking small.

[Dick Danger]

Two things;

1) Paragraphs rock.

2) Stupid is as stupid does.

3) Some day guys wearing jeans that look like leggings will not be cool anymore, then guys wearing jeans that look like sweats will be in. Then someday that won't be cool anymore.

4) Buy a pair of Warehouse 1000XXs and use denim of that type to make jeans that could have been worn by Joe DiMaggio, Chuck Yeager, Pat Tillman, AJ Amatuzio, and Neil Young.

5) The ends always make the most noise, but the middle floats the boat.

[ilovespaz]

i had a meeting with a Saks Fifth Avenue contemporary buyer once, and she had asked me if i could put a huge embroidery design on my back pocket. i raised my eyebrows and never called back.

[Heartworm]

honeycombs prefaded are horrible, always...

and to the person who said skinny is already on its way out, it hasn't even caught on yet... atleast on my college campus, im pretty sure im the only guy who doesnt wear bootcut jeans, as well, im the only guy i ever see in skinny jeans, besides like one other kid in my 4 years here...

It might not have caught on in USA yet, I know nothing about that, but it's been done by everyone and their mother for the past 2 years here. It's dying slowly.

Also, I said that if he wanted to be AHEAD of other denim companies he shouldn't do it. If he wants to do the same shit as everyone else he should just go ahead and make skinny cuts.

[indigo_junkie]

I'm the only one I know who wears raw jeans (except for my brother who worships his ONE pair of slim jims - he's worn them for the last 5 months straight with no washing). I met up with a few guys I haven't seen in a while. They had matching ultra distressed tsubi's (before they became Ksubi, bleh), stone washed to almost white and holes and tears everywhere. I asked them if they had fallen off a motorcycle or something, and they told me they were new and had bought them LOOKING like that. I was like, wtf?

So yeah, I too believe that the sufu crowd is a very small % of the population (can't believe how many are in Sydney though).

The trouble with fake honeycombs is that they don't fit, and if the jeans shrink over time, the combs will climb up. I saw a guy with combs up to the middle of his hamstrings. it was the funniest thing I ever saw, I almost laughed out loud.

I think you've got the general idea about what appeals to the majority of sufu members here. slim straight, long inseam, button fly, selvedge, medium rise, good pocket placement, hardware (donut buttons, hidden rivets etc) and high quality, shuttle loomed double ring spun denim (over 15oz please). Personally, I like big back pockets with loud stitching. I love the Imperial back stiching and old pocket size. I bought a pair of Ande Whall V3 because of the thumbs.

[viv1984viv]

Wow, this is interesting, firstly... Matt I wish you the best of luck with your denim company.

Like most people I prefer a minimalist design, I own quite a few jeans but the design and appearance of my APC new standards would be my favourite. I like small back pockets like APC and somet do. I like a slim leg, preferably a hem width of 8 inches or less on a 30inch waist jean.

I like fabrics, the slubbier and darker the better, I would like to see a company that offered lots of fabrics in the same cut, lightweight black denim, heavy slubby indigo denim all in a slim cut. Offer the same jean in greencast and redcast dyed denim. Overdye!!! There are not enough true overdye jeans out there.

I think you should try to make any distinctive style as subtle as possible, E.g. you could have the topside stitching on the right back pocket in purple and leave everything else traditional. Bartacks??? Id like to see more of those on the front pockets. Why not add darts ( like somet! hehe, I should buy a pair! ) a small cinch by the knee? Chainstitch the pockets so the thread is more apparent. Theres loads of stuff you could do.

[twistedtrees]

someone already said it, but I want to stress it: wider belt loops. Like a half inch or 1cm at least. and make sure theyre on good.

Also another restate: bigger pockets.

to be honest, I haven't worn any painter/carpenter pants in years, but that damn little tape measure pocket on the side was about the most handy thing in the world for putting a cellphone in. I don't think I'd want one now, but can't somebody come up with a good cellphone pocket solution? besides the "no cellphone" answer.

[-questionmark-]

as far as rivets go. id like to see interestingly shaped ones. i was in love with the denimjunkie star rivets. something like that would be very cool for any visible rivets.

[pacioli]

i'd love to see an american mill churning out slubby denim. i'm tired of buying japanese jeans to be honest and would plop down for the sake of a unique/quality homemade good

Cone's white oak line has some gorgeous slubby denim (the experimental stuff I saw did anyway). Not many US brands buy these goods...and the ones who do usually put the jeans through funky washes that make us intuitively walk right by them.

[ang_kangkong]

Pacioli — haven't read from you in awhile.

Can I ask what you're feeling about the Levi's arcuate lawsuit backlash?

[Matt_L_Gabriel]

Well a couple of things to cover here. as for the beltloop I between 3/8" and 1/2" as those I find work and look the best. On the note of the cell phone pocket, I don't think it will ever work to be honest, I personally think something like that would end up looking tacky even with the most amount of thought and effort put into it. And the times change too much, today everyone's got a razor tommorow everyone will have the Apple iPhone and what would be too big for someone would be too small for someone else. I am trying to create something classic without the bells and wistles that tell of the times.

I have seen a trend though on here and from many other people that find it difficult to deal with the fact that they find the perfect cut of jeans from a company but not in the wash they like. So we are keeping our line to a basic of 5 cuts for men and 5 cuts for womens in a variable 5 standard washes/colors for each gender that will be available in each of the cut. for men those are Black with no distressing (resin baked), Black with minimal distressing around the pockets and waistband with the slightest hand sanding, a dark indigo with no distressing but resin baked, a medium indigo with slight distressing, and a seasonal olive or cream. So we want our customers to be able to get there straight leg, there skinny jean, there mid rise loose cut ect in any of those colors. I've found that need to be consistent among the different markets.

As for the arcuate law suit, personally I think they have a right to not want exact copies, though I think they've taken that too far and don't believe they should have the right to launch lawsuits on everyone who uses vertical seems for tags, in that case I would like to take out my TM or Patent on zipper fly's and rake in the dough...lol

[jeepster]

I take it you'll offer raw and selvage jeans as seperates from prewashed jeans, because there will be a large market that wants your jeans to become their jeans - the whole DIY aesthic of fading the raw/selvage etc. etc.

[RockTheVote]

Seriously, I felt bored after reading 3 pages.. Everybody is telling you what to do, what not to do in their own opinion. 23 is your brand., do what you think is your personal taste and flavor into it. Yes, most people here love "minimalist" jeans.. You want to be in the high-end market, you have to do something different from other denim brands. I love how jeepster's idea on CheapMonday. I think CheapMonday's marketing (BS or story-telling) is the key.

Currently working in fashion / production for mass market and worked for high-end brands retail store make me realize how things work..

Final thoughts: Do what you like and believe in it. (for yourself and the name)

Do what mass people want w/ good marketing / PR (sometimes you are creating a lifestyle and image instead of the product itself), .. $$$$$$$ will come to you easily and make you wanna say "Fuck Passion for Fashion).

Do what SUFU members like, I doubt you will still have your banker/backbone after 2 seasons. (Please don't be mad, what SUFU people into is a very very small % because in the end it's him whom has to pay the bill, not you, me or us)

[lowrider]

Can I special order a single pair of custom made jeans? I'd like the exact same denim from my KMW AWA but in my Somet Slim 008 cut. =)

Here's to dreamin'...

[Matt_L_Gabriel]

RTV, your right on the money there, it's a blend of what you believe in and stand for and a mixture of what the masses want while not sacraficing the quality and product integrity of a well made pair of jeans that the die hard denim heads looks for. But I appreciate everyones opinions and ideas, it's nice to know what everyone wants, from the rich sixteen year old girl to the japanese selvage denim obssessed older guy. I know what we are and what we do it's just nice to have an idea of exactly where you fit in to everything.

[jeepster]

just a question matt, what is your proposed price point? depending on the market, i guess if you're gonna play along with a story to the clothing, you need to put it in a price range that makes sense. april77 made the mistake of standing for "anti-establishment" while charging sometimes ridiculous prices for their clothing. if its gonna be playing off a DIY and up the roots kinda image and story, where each pair of jeans is made to make the wearer an authentic piece of living fashion, then i wouldn't want the jeans to cost so much that in honesty im buying into something that im not getting in return. if that makes sense...