Classical Music

[sawyer]

- not a musician and

- dunno much about classical

but that "horowitz plays scriabin" blows my mind every time

i'm on the lookout for recommendations as far as contemporary composers/compositions (string quartet and piano concertos especially) so if you got your ear on somethin good please share!

[tweeds]

Speaing as someone who teaches I can't say I have any regard for the Suzuki method whatsoever... asides from the fundamental failing that rather than teaching people about music it teaches them to play music (like some kind of robotic performing monkey) it's teaching methods are extremely dated and inefficient in terms of speed of learning. If you want to get good at an instrument quickly you need to dedicate time and effort to a) reading as much different music as possible developing your skillset of articulations etc. as early as possible and c) learning to play as many patterns (muscle memories) as possible. Piddling about teaching and learning by rote is wasting everyone's time as far as I'm concerned, if it was fast and effective I could at least appreciate it. In addition, the benefit of being able to play music but not understand it eludes me... all the beauties and secrets of music lie in the understanding, not in the execution.

going to offer a defence of the method here, also as someone who used to teach. i think what is often not emphasised enough about the method is the temporal context: the Suzuki method was developed as an early music education system, which relies on a child's sense of hearing and ability to mimic, in the same way a child picks up his "mother tongue" at home. at an age of 3 (the ideal age under the method to begin musical education) the beginning of pitch training and musical sensitivity through rhythm and singing games, as well as an emphasis on grip and posture shortly after, is something that will form a sturdy foundation for further development, if utilised well by the teacher. at this age reading, comprehension and motor skills are often not developed enough.

certainly at some point more studied approaches to music education must kick in, where a broader view of technique and an appreciation of tone and sound is important. i agree as far as teaching older children and adults is concerned the method is full of holes, but this was not what it was intended for in the first place.

my issue with the method is often with the terrible execution of teaching. as with, i suppose, any "popular" model of education, musical or otherwise. too many teachers use it too generally, without a comprehension of its perspective, and that is where it gets its bad name from.

[tweeds]

addendum:

i've also spoken to many senior teachers when i was teaching, and some of them have been inspirational in their adaptation of the method to local (singaporean) contexts, and sometimes particular students' needs. they recognise that the method, although philosophically sound, often needs finetuning in practice. one example is a teacher who, after the class has reached a point where basic motor control is achieved, teaches reading in a similar way to how the method teaches pitch, and his results are hugely successful. sympathetic rather than destructive adaptation of the method, bearing in mind especially its particular japanese (and east/southeast, perhaps) asian context in which it was founded, can produce a hybrid system tailored to the local context in which an individual teacher operates.

[Double D]

I can see where you're coming from with the use in teaching musical sensitivity, something that most English people seem worryingly bereft of in my experience. Not so convinced that very young children aren't developed enough to learn tradionally notated music however (largely speaking from personal experience, but then again I was a very fast developer).

[jack napier]

- not a musician and

- dunno much about classical

but that "horowitz plays scriabin" blows my mind every time

i like the hamelin recordings even better, but horowitz is also key.

just a big fan of hamelin's work in general. also has a great version of rach 3... wanted to see lang lang do that earlier this year but i missed out.

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one of my favourites...

[jack napier]

also bumping that charles-valentin alkan

[mrjuby]

glenn gould bump

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[viv1984viv]

Glenn Gould - is amazing - his level of obsession is ridiculous.

The collected essays are still on my list of must reads...

[tweeds]

I can see where you're coming from with the use in teaching musical sensitivity, something that most English people seem worryingly bereft of in my experience. Not so convinced that very young children aren't developed enough to learn tradionally notated music however (largely speaking from personal experience, but then again I was a very fast developer).

definitely needs more looking into, the average age at which reading skills can be effectively taught. i should be more familiar with the pedagogical research with regard to early childhood education but it's not my field at the moment, really fascinating stuff though.

The collected essays are still on my list of must reads...

what are these essays? i had no idea

[viv1984viv]

definitely needs more looking into, the average age at which reading skills can be effectively taught. i should be more familiar with the pedagogical research with regard to early childhood education but it's not my field at the moment, really fascinating stuff though.

what are these essays? i had no idea

I think its called the glenn gould reader - will contain his essays on popular music which are of interest to me.

Tweeds- I have the purple marlene marino - do you need scans or do you want to buy? I cant to the latter.

[tweeds]

thanks for the shout, i'll get on it

just started downloading a 8gb collection of Gould recordings, i've not had the opportunity to hear his recordings of modern composers, so looking forward to that.

[semper]

Anyone here interested in opera and music theatre?

If you are, you will like Wagners Opera And Drama, an essay written in 1851 that sort of precedes his big opera's, and paves the way for them. It's hopelessly unscientific, but very entertaining, especially when he discusses Rossini's opera's, which he loathes:

If text is a man and music is a woman, in Rossini's opera's the music has become a whore (eine Lustdirne) that "gives herself away". Text has to "fecundate" music anew.

And of course Wagner will do the job.

And then read Nietzsche's 1888 essays Nietzsche Contra Wagner and The Case Wagner (Der Fall Wagner), where Nietzsche distances himself from his old friend.

Great stuff. If you are interested in it.

[avantxgarde]

not sure if this fits in here, but i just saw the most beautiful video since weeks and you said you're interested in experimental violinist music...

i'm not a musician myself, but this band inspired me a lot.

warren ellis and the dirty three ladys and gents. <3

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in terms of "classical" music i'm a big fan of steve reich

music for 18 musicians is a must have in every collection.

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and one of my favourite bands of all time are rachel's.

i dont wanna know how many bottles of redwine i drank while listening to 'em.

outstanding...and you see alot of similarity to all this "modern" postrock bands like explosions in the sky, red sparowes,...

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btw, thx for that sergey rachmaninov vid. good stuff.

[mofonyx]

my obsession for the past week

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[tweeds]

Anyone here interested in opera and music theatre?

If you are, you will like Wagners Opera And Drama, an essay written in 1851 that sort of precedes his big opera's, and paves the way for them. It's hopelessly unscientific, but very entertaining, especially when he discusses Rossini's opera's, which he loathes...

used to play in the pit orchestra for some operas in Singapore, but only a layman's interest in the area. definitely haven't had enough (or any?) contact with Wagner's operas, friend of mine loves the Ring Cycle so i sometimes hear bits of it from him.

funny habit: Harmonic 313, Prefuse 73 et al. have become my metronome over the past month, i practise scales to their beats. maybe it's my imagination but groove helps to build a sense of time better than a simple tick-tock?

[Double D]

I'm liking the fact that opera companies have started employing attractive people, much to the chagrin of the old establishment, who it would seem are quite happy to have the tradition die out rather than modernise. Never could take Tristan & Isolde seriously when the 'young, passionate lovers' were minutes away from cardiac arrest.

Not a massive opera fan personally but I'm rather partial to Berg's Lulu, very interesting contrast of romantic and modernist ideas throughout.

Also props to whoever mentioned Music for 18 Musicians earlier, one of my all time favourites.

[Double D]

Speaking of all time favourites...

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[tweeds]

all sold out except for wheelchair seating, nice...

seeing sibelius' symphonies 4 - 7 in february; osmo vanska conducting. some of my favourite symphonies, intricately constructed, moody pieces.

[domdomdomdom]

my obsession for the past week

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[mrjuby]

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[mrjuby]

going to see yuja wang tonight! shes doing schumann, schubert, prokofiev and scriabin.

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anybody into atonal music?

just bought a cd of mitsuko uchida playing schoenberg's piano concerto with pierre boulez conducting the cleveland orchestra, really crazy stuff. not scriabin crazy but good crazy.

[dibango]

LdfNTO_o-3k

[semper]

anybody into atonal music?

just bought a cd of mitsuko uchida playing schoenberg's piano concerto with pierre boulez conducting the cleveland orchestra, really crazy stuff. not scriabin crazy but good crazy.

I have had to sing some atonal stuff during my studies.

Luckily, most composers have given up on it nowadays, especially with singers.

I'll be doing a Georges Aperghis piece in Madrid next month. Anyone heard of him?

[mrjuby]

I have had to sing some atonal stuff during my studies.

Luckily, most composers have given up on it nowadays, especially with singers.

I'll be doing a Georges Aperghis piece in Madrid next month. Anyone heard of him?

are you a vocalist/singer/sorry-i-dont-know-the-proper-term? i'm going crazy just thinking about the training you need to be able to sing atonal stuff.

some ravel!

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[jwsach]

i wish i knew more about classical.....

currently listening to Elgar

[mrjuby]

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almost missed this post! YES! i recently bought a box set of beethoven's 9 symphonies with von Karajan leading the berlin philharmonic. i've been listening to this symphony a lot!

is it me or does von Karajan look like david lynch's older with too much swagger? just look at him conducting beethoven's 3rd!

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i wish i knew more about classical.....

my friend got a dvd of a series from his cousins in the philippines.

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Nodame_Cantabile anyone heard of/seen this? they name drop a lot of composers (debussy, gershwin, rachmaninoff, brahms) which was pretty cool and i didnt think they dumbed it down. the performances might be misleading in terms of how long the songs really are. they usually play a minute of the intro > part with a big climax > ending.

i think this might be a good way (if you can find it online) to get started!

[40ozprophet]

Just saw Gergiev conduct Stravinsky with the new york philharmonic. He did Renard and Histoire du Soldat. Alec Baldwin was the narrator for Histoire du Soldat and honestly the 'modern' text wasn't as good as some older ones I've heard. After listening to Gergiev Conduct Mahler's 2nd Symphony, I was surprised at how laid back he was yesterday; my take: these pieces aren't particularly difficult, and musicians of that caliber can make their way through it without a conductor. I think he was just letting them do their own thing, respectfully. Anyways, I very much enjoyed the performance. I just wish the Cimbalom was easier to hear in Renard; I suppose there are always problems with dynamics.

[haploid]

I decided to give classical music a shot and am really really enjoying it.

I know some of the greats and a few works by them but aside from that I'm totally clueless (which is pretty pathetic) so where do you guys think I should begin? Any eras of specific importance that you think I should spend extra time learning about?

[semper]

Nice, haploid.

Its difficult to start . Maybe you can give a clue as to what you have been listening to already?

"classical" music spans nine centuries. It's very diverse; there are many different styles, eras, composers, just like there is a vast number of names for styles in pop music.

For me it started with Bach's Magnificat. Beware though: it all depends on a good recording. For Baroque, I wouldn't recommend anything older than 1980 because historically informed performance practice has changed (improved) so much since then.

But maybe you're more looking for that sensation of an overwhelming cloud of sound. Late Romantic does that very well. Richard Strauss for example; "Also sprach Zaratustra" or the Four Last Songs (find a Von Karajan recording), but I know that for newbies, romantic singers can be a bit too much at once.

A real beauty that somehow pops into my mind now is the overture from Wagner's Rheingold; the horns at the beginning are stunning.

And for a beginner, Neo-Romantic Górecki's symphony can be a good start.

If you want to get into singers a bit more: to overcome the language barrier, try finding Dawn Upshaw's recording of the aria "No word from Tom", from Stravinsky's The Rake's Progress, I think it was conducted by Seiji Ozawa. It's what we call neoclassical, a sort of neo-Mozart. Listen to Mozart after that, and you'll hear the resemblance.

some other favorites of mine

Chamber music:

-String Quintet by Schubert, esp. the 2nd movement.

-All string quartets by Shostakovich.

-chansons Madécasses by Ravel

Orchestral works:

-piano concerts by Mozart

-all the above mentioned

Baroque:

-Bach's Brandenburger Concertos

-b minor mass by Bach: the Kyrie, Sanctus and the first Agnus Dei

-the opera l'Orfeo by Monteverdi (especially the opening toccata and the introduction scene. René Jacobs conducted a good one)

-Musikalische Exequien by Schutz (you need a decent recording of this; La Chapelle Royale made a good one)

Renaissance: this might not be your thing, but:

-all religious works by Josquin Des Prez, but there are so many bad recordings out there. Especially English groups are to be shunned.

-Jacob Obrecht

-Johannes Ockeghem

for contemporary music: this is harder since many works have not been recorded properly yet. I can tell you more about this if you want.

one last note: I personally think it helps the listening greatly if you are aware of the period and the country in which the music was written. It gives you an idea of the aesthetics of the time, and you can use this as a listening guide.

Have fun!

[pita bread]

Great suggestions, semper.

I'll chime in with some of my favorites that I've tried to categorize:

Big colorful sweeps of sound:

Debussy - La mer

Respighi - Pini di Roma (Pines of Rome)

Ravel - Gaspard de la nuit

Ravel - Scheherazade

Heart-on-your-sleeve romanticism

Barber - Sure on this Shining Night

Barber - Piano Concerto, second movement

Barber - Toccata Festiva, for organ and orchestra

Chopin - Ballade no. 4

Grieg - Piano Concerto

Puccini - Turandot

Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto no. 2

Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto no. 3

Dark and brooding:

Prokofiev - Piano Concerto no. 2

Sibelius - Kullervo

Epic symphonic:

Beethoven - Symphony no. 9

Tchaikovsky - Symphony no. 6

Wagner - Gotterdammerung (Twlight of the Gods)

Cerebral elegance:

Beethoven - Piano Sonata no. 28, op. 101

Beethoven - Piano Sonata no. 29, op. 106

Beethoven - Piano Sonata no. 30, op. 109

Beethoven - Piano Sonata no. 31, op. 110

Beethoven - Piano Sonata no. 32, op. 111

Lively and percussive:

Stravinsky - Firebird (suite)

Stravinsky - Petrouchka (either the 3 movements for piano or the orchestral suite)

Rhythmic and trance-like (this stuff is really trippy!):

Adams - Chairman Dances

Reich - Music for 18 Musicians

I'll add more when stuff comes to mind... anyways, happy listening!