Belts

[mikecch]

I actually find oiling and waxing leather items very relaxing - I don't think I'll ever purchase a high-end leather item and not maintain it

Pics of your RM belt please next too the dolce vita if poss.

Sorry dude, I've given that belt to my dad after a couple years wear. I'll see if I can find some pics - it'll be in my blog in the short future if I do manage to find them.

[indigo_junkie]

I don't really agree with that, you shouldn't have to oil or condition a belt for it to age well. Really high quality hides have a certain cell make-up which allows them to age without cracking even under extreme conditions and requires no tanning or oiling whatsoever by the owner.

I actually have to disagree with that. My ironheat belt cracked in the middle (something that hasn't happened with any of my other belts) after about a year of wear. I didn't oil it and now I wish I did, because my RMW belt has never cracked in over 10 years of use (and I oil it yearly, at first with RMW saddle dressing - as recommended, and now with OB).

[mikecch]

Mikecch: Organization*.

Excuse my pet peeve.

I'm Australian mate - we prefer 'organisation', at least that was how I was taught.

[farmer]

Tanner

[almostnice]

so well done farmer,absolutely brilliant pics!

[ThinFinn]

^^great pics and nice evo farmer...+rep

here's a tiny pic of my obbi good label - belt...some like 3-4 months of use!

[mikecch]

This confuses the hell out of me. I want to know, please.

I've always thought a lot of the difference in price is exchange rate-based kinda? I don't really know, it'd be interesting to find out.

It confuses me as well - I thought most Japanese makers use 11 to 15oz US steer hide? I guess some of the premium involves shipping the hide to Japan, and the taxation/currency exchange issues, etc. E.g. Opus x Horween belts, Samurai's belts, KC's belts, Dolce Vita belts, etc etc etc - all use American steer hide, which I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting hold of, and making good belts from

I know some makers such as Kawatako use cattle from Japan; but a 6 month old, grass fed steer is just that, whether it comes from Tochigi, Queensland or somewhere in the US - I don't think the cattle used for the TFH or RM belts are very different from the ones used for the OEM/craftmen belts, as long as the hide is carefully selected.

As for not needing to maintain a belt - isn't it the more you hot-stuff the leather, the more oils you get into it and the more 'durable'/'maintainence free' the leather becomes. I think then it's a property of the treatment process, and not the actual leather itself. Granted, the cattle selection is very important, but I think most belt makers would be sensible enough to use steer back or bull butt, etc, and not the belly of an old cow.

[goat]

Don't even remember how old this is now....Corter natural leather belt

oiled a handful of times, tanned a bit too, but mostly from wear and tear

Just some quick pics

And i know i've shown this before, but probably my favourite thing about my belt is it showed the progress of my weight loss

Always liked the "cracking" inside of the belt too

Lastly - cheap plug - Lost the other end of the screw.....anybody know where to get one? for some reason, everywhere i go around here only had permanent ones.....i have another buckle to use when this one has completely gone to shit, so i need the screw to be removable

[kalpa1103]

^is this the premium one or the cheaper one?

P.S ppl with 29 waist go with 30 or 31 in belt?

[corter]

It confuses me as well - I thought most Japanese makers use 11 to 15oz US steer hide? I guess some of the premium involves shipping the hide to Japan, and the taxation/currency exchange issues, etc. E.g. Opus x Horween belts, Samurai's belts, KC's belts, Dolce Vita belts, etc etc etc - all use American steer hide, which I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting hold of, and making good belts from

I know some makers such as Kawatako use cattle from Japan; but a 6 month old, grass fed steer is just that, whether it comes from Tochigi, Queensland or somewhere in the US - I don't think the cattle used for the TFH or RM belts are very different from the ones used for the OEM/craftmen belts, as long as the hide is carefully selected.

As for not needing to maintain a belt - isn't it the more you hot-stuff the leather, the more oils you get into it and the more 'durable'/'maintainence free' the leather becomes. I think then it's a property of the treatment process, and not the actual leather itself. Granted, the cattle selection is very important, but I think most belt makers would be sensible enough to use steer back or bull butt, etc, and not the belly of an old cow.

Yea, I mean it depends a lot on the cut of the leather too- you wouldn't want to use a calf belly (kip skin) for a belt, they're very soft. Are you sure they're using calf? I wouldn't think they'd be able to get large enough hides for belts.

A lot of difference in hides from different areas is indeed how the cattle are treated. Most of the nice hides are from cattle raised in cool climates, and free range-ish. You don't want them near barbed wire because it can scar the hides, and the fewer bugs the better because it reduces scaring as well.

I've never used a hot stuffed leather- however, I know the most simple process involves a lot of wax, and basically dipping the leather in wax or wax/fat mix. These belts aren't hot stuffed either though, are they?

I was more or less speaking about all of the biology/fat layers/all that stuff you were talking about, could you explain?

[mikecch]

I don't think they use calf leather for belts - usually the backbone cut of an older steer I think (ignore my six months comment, I was thinking wallets).

I don't think they'd use stuffed leather for belts either, but that's as close to a self-hydrating veg. tanned leather as I could imagine.

Here's a simple explanation from David Lanning talking about the layers of the dermis:

"This important section is called the dermis and consists mainly of densely interwoven fibrous tissue. This tissue is made up of a protein called collagen. If you look under a microscope, you will clearly see all of the fibre bundles. It is these fibre bundles which make leather such a strong, flexible and unique material.

The dermis is broken down into 3 parts:

Corium - Here the fibre bundles are large and strong. They lie at varying angles to the grain layer above. This angle varies in different animals, but to some extent, the angle can be altered during the leather manufacturing process. This angle is known as the 'angle of weave' and it effects the physical properties of the leather. A lower angle of weave produces a softer, weaker and less elastic leather.

Grain - It consists of more densely woven fibre bundles, which have a much finer construction. Towards the top of this layer, next to the epidermis, the fibres are extremely fine and form the layer we call the grain.

Junction - This is the area between the corium and the grain layer. In certain animals it can cause problems, e.g. in sheep (basil) where splitting can occur along the junction area.There are a few other things worth noting:

1. Running throughout the skin are many veins and sweat glands.

2. Between the fibre bundles are inter-fibrillary proteins. These proteins can cause a problem. They are not like the collagen proteins which make up the fibre bundles. When they dry out, they form hard glues that clog up the leather. This would make the leather hard and inflexible.

There are many fat cells within the corium. These can vary depending on:

* the type of animal

* the breed

* the foodstuffs used

* the time of year it was slaughtered

Fats are easy to remove, but in sheep the fat can be up to 30% of the weight of the skin and once removed can leave large empty spaces, which can make the leather feel empty."

For more details I recommend 'Tanning Chemistry: The Science of Leather'. There's a free preview on Google Books for it.

I mentioned the biology since Kiya mentioned the higher end leathers have special cellular properties - I just wanted to know exactly which properties he was referring to.

[smittybat]

Lastly - cheap plug - Lost the other end of the screw.....anybody know where to get one? for some reason, everywhere i go around here only had permanent ones.....i have another buckle to use when this one has completely gone to shit, so i need the screw to be removable

They're called chicago screws, lots of places sell them online.

[goat]

^^thank you sir, now at least I know what to ask for

now to find them locally (everywhere online sells them in packs of 100+)

[riff]

Hey Goat - Tandy Leather Factory has them for sale individually. There's a location in Mississauga & another in Scarborough. Cheers bro!

[goat]

Good man!

i know where the Mississauga location is too

much appreciated

[salaami]

farmer shut it DOWN! in a bit i'm gonna post some pics of my cheap-ass, durable as-shit tandy joint. i'm no leather scientist, but i would assume that as long as you start with a raw veg-tanned leather and wear it for a while it will beautify. leather is lfike denim: as long as they start off raw and you rock em' enough they will turn out nice, StF levis or hank-dyed 45 rpms.

so i'll just rub a lil shea on my belt, african style. leather is skin and since the oil glands are DEAD it might need some kind of fats/lipids to keep it supple. just a recommendation. shea has been proven through centuries of use.

as for the price of jap belts i could see the artisan craftsmanship( the stitch quality is always immaculate) and the attention to detail, exclusivity along with top-notch hardware as being a justifiable reason to charge so much for a leather strip. cause lets not trip, the leather from RM, KC, or IH(not surprising that it cracked eventually) is not but so much better than tandy unless they raise the cows on some secret island. the lady at tandy told me that tandy supplies raw veg tanned leather to japanese artisan companies, although she wouldn't name names. with all that said, if i could afford it i would grab a real nice peice from SE, cause that skull belt worn for the FH tour had the sickest buckle.

[smittybat]

I think a huge comparison point is in the thickness of the leather. I've found it hard to find belt blanks that are thicker than 8-9oz. Tanner Goods belts are 13oz and that's a huge difference in thickness. I wonder how many belts you can get at that thickness out of 1 hide. The thinner belts warp and stretch way too easy. The belt I use is 2 layers of 7oz bull hide, glued then sewn together. It's pretty much indestructible and while it slowly conforms to my body it doesn't warp like a single layer belt

[cheapmuthafukr]

my tanner golden natural... 13oz i think?... since janurary maybe? i dont keep track of that kind of shit...

love the curve its taken on

[BlueOctoberFan]

So due to a 40lb weight loss since getting in to denim, I'll be needing a new belt before long... With ALD under and their belts no longer available, what's the closest option for a black belt (at a similar price point)?

[corter]

I don't think they use calf leather for belts - usually the backbone cut of an older steer I think (ignore my six months comment, I was thinking wallets).

I don't think they'd use stuffed leather for belts either, but that's as close to a self-hydrating veg. tanned leather as I could imagine.

Here's a simple explanation from David Lanning talking about the layers of the dermis:

"This important section is called the dermis and consists mainly of densely interwoven fibrous tissue. This tissue is made up of a protein called collagen. If you look under a microscope, you will clearly see all of the fibre bundles. It is these fibre bundles which make leather such a strong, flexible and unique material.

The dermis is broken down into 3 parts:

Corium - Here the fibre bundles are large and strong. They lie at varying angles to the grain layer above. This angle varies in different animals, but to some extent, the angle can be altered during the leather manufacturing process. This angle is known as the 'angle of weave' and it effects the physical properties of the leather. A lower angle of weave produces a softer, weaker and less elastic leather.

Grain - It consists of more densely woven fibre bundles, which have a much finer construction. Towards the top of this layer, next to the epidermis, the fibres are extremely fine and form the layer we call the grain.

Junction - This is the area between the corium and the grain layer. In certain animals it can cause problems, e.g. in sheep (basil) where splitting can occur along the junction area.There are a few other things worth noting:

1. Running throughout the skin are many veins and sweat glands.

2. Between the fibre bundles are inter-fibrillary proteins. These proteins can cause a problem. They are not like the collagen proteins which make up the fibre bundles. When they dry out, they form hard glues that clog up the leather. This would make the leather hard and inflexible.

There are many fat cells within the corium. These can vary depending on:

* the type of animal

* the breed

* the foodstuffs used

* the time of year it was slaughtered

Fats are easy to remove, but in sheep the fat can be up to 30% of the weight of the skin and once removed can leave large empty spaces, which can make the leather feel empty."

For more details I recommend 'Tanning Chemistry: The Science of Leather'. There's a free preview on Google Books for it.

I mentioned the biology since Kiya mentioned the higher end leathers have special cellular properties - I just wanted to know exactly which properties he was referring to.

Ok, I understand your past posts now in relation to this article. This section of the article is talking about what makes leather leather, yes, but it's speaking to the differences between animals- not specific cattle hides one-by-one. Unless the Japanese brands mentioned before are inspecting raw hide before it's turned into leather (which, granted, I wouldn't put past them) this whole "chemistry" thing doesn't seem to hold much ground on a per hide basis. You really just need someone who knows how to pick a good hide or hides at the tannery.

As for the cut of belt leather- usually shoulders and thick sides. Those are the strongest. And I do agree with you that hot stuffing creates a hydrated leather, but so does oiling. I think I'm just more interested in the leather Kiya was talking about, from what I made of it the properties are because of the hide itself, and I got confused.

Thanks for the article!

[mikecch]

Ok, I understand your past posts now in relation to this article. This section of the article is talking about what makes leather leather, yes, but it's speaking to the differences between animals- not specific cattle hides one-by-one. Unless the Japanese brands mentioned before are inspecting raw hide before it's turned into leather (which, granted, I wouldn't put past them) this whole "chemistry" thing doesn't seem to hold much ground on a per hide basis. You really just need someone who knows how to pick a good hide or hides at the tannery.

As for the cut of belt leather- usually shoulders and thick sides. Those are the strongest. And I do agree with you that hot stuffing creates a hydrated leather, but so does oiling. I think I'm just more interested in the leather Kiya was talking about, from what I made of it the properties are because of the hide itself, and I got confused.

Thanks for the article!

No worries mate That's what I was interested in too - since I didn't imagine there would be a huge difference between one cattle & another. And if they use leather from US tanners, I wouldn't imagine the treatment process of their premium leathers suitable for belting to be dramatically different?

So do we conclude that the price difference is due to the: 'extra' craftsmenship/cost of labour? exchange rates/taxation? is there really something 'special' about the leather? do they have a magical island with uber cows?

I think the prices that Sugar Cane, KC's, Dolce Vita, etc are quite reasonable.

Since I spend quite a bit of my clothing budget on leather (and all my leather knowledge come from books), I was just wondering if Kiya could explain why the TFH belt is worth double the price, or if someone could tell me why RM belts are almost x3 the price? - so I could be a better consumer!

[mikecch]

Anyway, got this fella coming in the mail next week Made by Bergamot Brass Works for Cat's Paw Rubber Company.

He was made in 1976 - going to be attached to my Dolce Vita belt.

[riff]

^ Mike, awesome! Where did you unearth that from?!

My Skull belt - a couple of years old, but not worn as much as my SC or Tanner...

[Farhad]

CMF Tanner belt is looking good

Here's my custom made Cordovan belt that my good friend made for me. the Brass buckle is from a WWII ammo bag. I've had it since 09. roughly year and half.

[entropy kid]

??? Correct me if I'm wrong but cordovan is from a horses hinquarter, so I would have assumed that there's no way to cut a strip the length of a belt from it.

Anyway: nice belt

[lance]

^ Shell cordovan is from the hindquarter and limited in size but I think they use hide from the rest of the horse for leather goods which can be full cut for some items.

[thelion1856]

took these pictures this morning...

vintage backpack

Tanner

Sugar Cane

Samurai

Corter

Red Moon Leather braid & Flat Head bracelet

corter & samurai on a pair of Oni blue's

[Farhad]

??? Correct me if I'm wrong but cordovan is from a horses hinquarter, so I would have assumed that there's no way to cut a strip the length of a belt from it.

Anyway: nice belt

the belt isn't shell cordovan which does come from the rump area. You can make a belt from other areas. I'm definitely not an expert on cordovan, so maybe one of the experts can enlighten us.

[mikecch]

^ Mike, awesome! Where did you unearth that from?!

Saw it on eBay while I was looking for vintage Cat's Paw clocks

[beautiful_FrEaK]

My SDA belt which started looking like this:

Now it looks like this: