A MUST READ: WSJ - Is Admissions Bar Higher for Asians At Elite Schools?

[mono14]

You missed my sarcasm meter, apparently, poly.

HAHA.

Let's cap the NBA Black quota at 25%. That way, with basketball spreading all over the world, we can have even more mediocre Chinese and European players in the league. Hell, how about affirmative action for height? Come on. We all love Early Boykins. Lets see some more sub-6-foot players play some run and gun.

[red]

sunflower-san

if you end up at ru

shit will be so redic

broseph

i kid you not

please define redic. and maybe shit too.

[red]

FUCK. THEM NIGGAS SO STUPID. THEY SHOULD STICK TO PICKING COTTON. WE SHOULD FIGHT THEM IN ARENAS. SLAVERY IS NOT WRONG. FUCKING NIGGAS DONT KNOW BETTER.

THEM CHINKS AND JAPS HAVE SMALL PENISES. SHIT. EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM IS SMALL. MAKE THEM GO BACK TO THIER OWN COUNTRY UNLESS THEYRE BUILDING RAILROADS FOR US.

what the fuck is up with all this racial bigotry. its making red mad. and when red mad red smash things!!!!

lets just love each other. love me good.

[xcoldricex]

asians in america are smarter than all other races in america. asians all over the world are not. but the ones that came to america in a majority came on their own free will to better themselves. to get that opportunity, they had to beat out a large majority in their home countries. so most asians in america are smarter because they had to get here pretty much based on how good they can do math.

all races are the same when you measure around the world. but as far as this country goes, asian folks today have higher IQ because the way they came to this country favored brains over brawn.

its not a racist thing at all.

no its just ignorant that's all. they got here based on how good they can do math HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

do you not realize how many working class asians there are in america? were you not aware of all the asians that came over to build the railroads? wake up. i'm done replying to your posts.

[LIVENUDEGIRLS]

asians in america are smarter than all other races in america. asians all over the world are not. but the ones that came to america in a majority came on their own free will to better themselves. to get that opportunity, they had to beat out a large majority in their home countries. so most asians in america are smarter because they had to get here pretty much based on how good they can do math.

all races are the same when you measure around the world. but as far as this country goes, asian folks today have higher IQ because the way they came to this country favored brains over brawn.

its not a racist thing at all.

Thats pretty insightful. I never thought of it that way. I mean, that is of course, unless your full of shit.

[PG2G]

Perhaps jl3969 has only met engineering asian, not donut shop or nail salon asian.

[onemancult]

or engineer african-american or scientist african-american.

or, hood rat thug asian, for that matter.

nuff respect to all the vietnamese gangbangers

i grew up with.

[azad]

I'm excited for the day that people will be able to educate themselves

that's the true remedy.

[Sammy You]

sunflower-san

if you end up at ru

shit will be so redic

broseph

i kid you not

i agree

i kid you not

[almondcrush]

i've given it some thought, and i figure asians must be smarter

how else would they get away with putting peepee in your coke for so long?

:confused:

p.s. - red

"shit" is common slang for feces

"redic" is a colloquial term frequently used in place of "delicious" or "fit for consumption"

[Thorns]

Sigh

I hate internet debates with such a passion. Everyone skims the posts and then writes whatever they believed in the first place. I wrote a blatantly pithy sarcastic talking point... then posted that I clearly didn't mean it... and people still didn't get it. Sheesh.

There has been so much debate about the how and why of affirmative action, but everybody gets that. As probably the only representative of an unpopular opinion though, I'm gonna stick to my guns and say again that I don't AGREE with it. I feel like affirmative action is bigotry. It leads to ridiculous posts like jl3969's. You can't get to the end of the arguement without saying that black people are stupider and all live in the ghetto, asian people are smarter and work harder, and white people are mean: therefore we should level the playing field. That is more bigotry than anything else. And its just naieve to think that its a temporary bandaid until life becomes fair and everybody is on the same level. The world was created unfair. There will always be people who are smarter or stronger or whatever is needed and I hate to break it to you guys, but it has absolutely nothing to do with race.

The debate should be focused on how to foster a more constructive atmostphere in high risk areas. Providing for the people who TRULY need it does not mean that we need to take away opportunity from other people. It does not mean we lower the standards.

My bet is everyone who replys skims this, decides Im racist and replies to their assumption. Any takers?

[onemancult]

Sigh

I hate internet debates with such a passion. Everyone skims the posts and then writes whatever they believed in the first place. I wrote a blatantly pithy sarcastic talking point... then posted that I clearly didn't mean it... and people still didn't get it. Sheesh.

There has been so much debate about the how and why of affirmative action, but everybody gets that. As probably the only representative of an unpopular opinion though, I'm gonna stick to my guns and say again that I don't AGREE with it. I feel like affirmative action is bigotry. It leads to ridiculous posts like jl3969's. You can't get to the end of the arguement without saying that black people are stupider and all live in the ghetto, asian people are smarter and work harder, and white people are mean: therefore we should level the playing field. That is more bigotry than anything else. And its just naieve to think that its a temporary bandaid until life becomes fair and everybody is on the same level. The world was created unfair. There will always be people who are smarter or stronger or whatever is needed and I hate to break it to you guys, but it has absolutely nothing to do with race.

The debate should be focused on how to foster a more constructive atmostphere in high risk areas. Providing for the people who TRULY need it does not mean that we need to take away opportunity from other people. It does not mean we lower the standards.

My bet is everyone who replys skims this, decides Im racist and replies to their assumption. Any takers?

i'll bite.

first, let me say that i don't think anyone has labelled you a racist. everyone who's responded at length has responded intelligently.

affirmative action isn't a temporary band-aid until things 'get' fair- it is a temporary process that should usher in some more fairness, and eventually, it should eradicate

the need for itself. with more and more blacks, asians, and hispanics entering into positions of power via ivy league universities they got into because of affirmative action policies, the power base held by extremely wealthy white men will start to deteriorate.

when a greater balance of powerful decisionmakers is achieved, there will be a more level playing field in terms of removing the usual institutionalized racism/classism that prevents highly qualified minorities from getting their feet through the doors of establishments of high education and the workplace simply because they aren't a white guy with a legacy.

the argument affirmative action puts across, to me, is not that we need to help black people get a leg up because they're poor and stupid, nor that asians are smart and they work hard, nor that white people are mean. it is simply this: while boldfaced racism may have been erased from mainstream america's collective consciousness,

the roots of racism have yet to be pulled out, and still affect the lives of thousands. rather than push the issue and cause greater conflict, why not set up a system that, in time, is meant to ease us into a healthier social balance?

affirmative action hasn't been in place long enough for people to claim it doesn't work.

and, for the record, it does: there are growing numbers of blacks and hispanics and asians entering into fields that they would have never been able to decades ago.

[PG2G]

I think one of the problems with affirmative action is that it is in fact race based. It should be for the disadvantaged, and you can't really say something like all blacks or hispanics are disadvantaged. I grew up in a upper middle class African neighborhood filled with doctors, lawyers, and engineers. No one in this environment should need the help of such a program.

If not race, perhaps it could be based on income or purely circumstantial, who knows. Difficult problem to solve I guess.

[jl3969]

fine im ignorant. whatever. its not like asians in america don't do better in every academic area than blacks and mexicans in america. its just now theyre starting to get a leg up on white folks too.

and all that talk about railroads and stuff, thats just a small percent of the asian folks' heritage compared to the general population of asians in america today. most are just second generation at most. their parents mostly ame here to be engineers and such. and they were also generally smarter than their peers back in asia to make it here on those merits.

black folks however, have long long roots intheir heritage tied to slavery, where they weren't exactly chosen for their capability to make calculators at TI.

there's just as smart black/white/brown folks as asian folks around the world, just not in the small slice of the global population called america.

[onemancult]

fine im ignorant. whatever. its not like asians in america don't do better in every academic area than blacks and mexicans in america. its just now theyre starting to get a leg up on white folks too.

and all that talk about railroads and stuff, thats just a small percent of the asian folks' heritage compared to the general population of asians in america today. most are just second generation at most. their parents mostly ame here to be engineers and such. and they were also generally smarter than their peers back in asia to make it here on those merits.

black folks however, have long long roots intheir heritage tied to slavery, where they weren't exactly chosen for their capability to make calculators at TI.

there's just as smart black/white/brown folks as asian folks around the world, just not in the small slice of the global population called america.

you're officially fucking retarded, and don't deserve oxygen.

you're comparing upper-middle class to wealthy university-educated asian immigrants

who have the choice and money and means to make it in america to pre-literate african tribesmen brought to america by force. no fucking duh they weren't chosen to make calculators: the goal of slavery was to take the strongest of men to do the intensive physical labor that the reed-thin well-to-do white bodies of the new americans just couldn't seem to handle.

blacks have had less than fifty years to establish themselves as an autonomous, self-fulfilling body functioning within american society. asian immigrants have often had generations worth of established stability in their home countries before coming to american and capitalizing on a system that anyone at a certain economic level can capitalize on.

newsflash: asians are a minority, too. so, how you say that there are more intelligent asians in america than other races is beyond me: the numbers won't add up, no matter how many times you count. you are good at counting... aren't you?

do you even take into the consideration the socio-economic reasons behind your ideas, or are they just incontrovertible facts that are impossible to dislodge from your head?

[azad]

you're comparing upper-middle class to wealthy university-educated asian immigrants

who have the choice and money and means to make it in america to pre-literate african tribesmen brought to america by force.

?

a sizeable population were muslim and spoke/wrote arabic. so Fard Muhammed was only exaggerating when he said Islam is the "black man's original religion".

ill try to see if i can find some sources shortly.

[xcoldricex]

fine im ignorant. whatever. its not like asians in america don't do better in every academic area than blacks and mexicans in america. its just now theyre starting to get a leg up on white folks too.

and all that talk about railroads and stuff, thats just a small percent of the asian folks' heritage compared to the general population of asians in america today. most are just second generation at most. their parents mostly ame here to be engineers and such. and they were also generally smarter than their peers back in asia to make it here on those merits.

black folks however, have long long roots intheir heritage tied to slavery, where they weren't exactly chosen for their capability to make calculators at TI.

there's just as smart black/white/brown folks as asian folks around the world, just not in the small slice of the global population called america.

you have obviously not seen the large amount of lower-middle class asians in america. OPEN YOUR EYES.

or read a little at least. a quick search yielded a research study:

The Socioeconomic Status of Asian American Families in Five Major SMSAs: With Regard to the Relevance of Commonly-Used Indicators of Economic Welfare.

This research examined the knowledge base on Pacific and Asian American families and assessed the impact of Federal programs and policies for this population. The thesis of the study was that conventional indicators used by the Federal government as measures of social welfare do not adequately depict the disadvantaged conditions under which many Asian Americans live, since Asian American families differ in many ways from those of other minority groups. Data was collected from Asian American families living in five standard metropolitan statistical areas (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Honolulu, and San Francisco). Statistical analyses of the data demonstrated that alternative measures of social welfare give a less optimistic view of the situation of Asian Americans than do conventional measures. Findings indicated that Asian Americans work more and earn less when compared to whites. It was also found that Asian Americans do measurably less well than whites with comparable levels of education and effort. Recommendations for future research are presented and tables of data are included. (Author/MK)

[onemancult]

a sizeable population were muslim and spoke/wrote arabic. so Fard Muhammed was only exaggerating when he said Islam is the "black man's original religion".

ill try to see if i can find some sources shortly.

i would definitely love to read up on that- let me know what you come up with.

[Aramyr]

Yeah, I would have to wonder where the hell someone is living, coldrice, that they don't see the poor and working class asians here in the US. What I'm concerned about, and I think more of the lower and middle class should be anymore, is the rediculous cost of higher education here in the US. This more than anything keeps the poor, a disproportionate number of which are minorities, from getting the education one needs to make a better life for themselves. White, red, black, yellow, forget it, color that really means shit anymore is green.

[Servo2000]

College really is starting to become unreasonably expensive these days. With the increasing rates, and other such economic factors out of the control of colleges, in a not entirely all that long period of time, the average working middle to lower-middle class area family will no longer be able to pay for their children to attend the vast majority of colleges, which in my mind is absurd. Again, in conjunction with our ever worsening highschool and public education system, is simply frightening.

I'd cite my source, but I can't find the fucking article anymore. Maybe someone else read it and knows what I'm talking about.

[poly800rock]

College really is starting to become unreasonably expensive these days. With the increasing rates, and other such economic factors out of the control of colleges, in a not entirely all that long period of time, the average working middle to lower-middle class area family will no longer be able to pay for their children to attend the vast majority of colleges, which in my mind is absurd. Again, in conjunction with our ever worsening highschool and public education system, is simply frightening.

I'd cite my source, but I can't find the fucking article anymore. Maybe someone else read it and knows what I'm talking about.

good points, but keep in mind 3 things

1) Apparantly, there is a growing upper middle class

2) Families don't always pay for higher education, I didn't pay for college (scholarships and such) and have numerous friends that have financed college themselves. Their financial situations aren't the best now, but I feel like in an influential society, to not go to college is worse than being poor for a few years after recouping your losses.

3) States like California make it hard NOT to go to college....its like $7000 there isn't it?

[jl3969]

you're comparing upper-middle class to wealthy university-educated asian immigrants who have the choice and money and means to make it in america to pre-literate african tribesmen brought to america by force. no fucking duh they weren't chosen to make calculators: the goal of slavery was to take the strongest of men to do the intensive physical labor that the reed-thin well-to-do white bodies of the new americans just couldn't seem to handle.

well, they're the general majority that represent their respective groups. most black people in america are descendents of slaves. most asian folks here are either first generation or barely second generation with parents that were brought over here to do engineering or something mathematical. you just reiterated what i said. blacks in america today are descendents of people chosen for their physical prowess, not intellectual. asian in america today are descendents of people chosen for their intellectual prowess, not physical.

blacks have had less than fifty years to establish themselves as an autonomous, self-fulfilling body functioning within american society. asian immigrants have often had generations worth of established stability in their home countries before coming to american and capitalizing on a system that anyone at a certain economic level can capitalize on.

fine, i'll give you that. that doesn't prove a thing. i never said the way this came to be was a fair race or anything. it's just the facts as of this day and age. given another 100 years, it could be completely different.

newsflash: asians are a minority, too. so, how you say that there are more intelligent asians in america than other races is beyond me: the numbers won't add up, no matter how many times you count. you are good at counting... aren't you?

i never said that. i said as a whole, asians in america are smarter than other races in america. i never said as a straight count of numbers, that would be retarded. look at all the test scores and grades when separated by race. asians always score at the highest percentile.

do you even take into the consideration the socio-economic reasons behind your ideas, or are they just incontrovertible facts that are impossible to dislodge from your head?

yes i did, i'd be willing to bet asians in poor school districts do better than blacks in poor districts. and i know for a fact asians in rich school districts definitely do better than blacks.

and i come from plano, tx. there's plenty of everything here. and everybody's generally upper middle class to extremely rich.

and of course asian folks have a harder time than white folks. who doesn't have a harder time compared to white folks. white folks have it the easiest in all the world. it's not a secret that being white is the number one key to success in this country. and i don't mean that in a way that white people are in any way superior. its just rigged in their favor.

[mono14]

As much as I disrespect some the ignorant comments posted on this thread, it is true that Asians do better in intelligence tests. I've always believed that differences in intelligence between the races was negligible, and the info came as a shock to me. I can accept that there are racial differences in intelligence , as well as physical composition and other genetic predispositions. However, I am also reluctant to assume that any race is, in any way, inferior to another.

[xcoldricex]

intelligence tests are biased and controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

[poly800rock]

well, they're the general majority that represent their respective groups. most black people in america are descendents of slaves. most asian folks here are either first generation or barely second generation with parents that were brought over here to do engineering or something mathematical. you just reiterated what i said. blacks in america today are descendents of people chosen for their physical prowess, not intellectual. asian in america today are descendents of people chosen for their intellectual prowess, not physical.

fine, i'll give you that. that doesn't prove a thing. i never said the way this came to be was a fair race or anything. it's just the facts as of this day and age. given another 100 years, it could be completely different.

i never said that. i said as a whole, asians in america are smarter than other races in america. i never said as a straight count of numbers, that would be retarded. look at all the test scores and grades when separated by race. asians always score at the highest percentile.

yes i did, i'd be willing to bet asians in poor school districts do better than blacks in poor districts. and i know for a fact asians in rich school districts definitely do better than blacks.

and i come from plano, tx. there's plenty of everything here. and everybody's generally upper middle class to extremely rich.

and of course asian folks have a harder time than white folks. who doesn't have a harder time compared to white folks. white folks have it the easiest in all the world. it's not a secret that being white is the number one key to success in this country. and i don't mean that in a way that white people are in any way superior. its just rigged in their favor.

i feel like you're clumping "asians" in some huge bracket when it's not that simple. you can't do that simply because the chinese and japanese have roots in america since the 1800's. then came the philipinos. then came the koreans. then came the southeast asians. then came the Indians and Pakistanis...When you break things up that way, you'd probably conclude that you have this middle bunch of folks (the ones that have come to this country due to American fuck ups) that haven't necessarily proven that they are smarter than your average bear. Take a stereotypic look at the hollywood portrayl of the middle bunch, and then you get your generalized idea of how many asians aren't ridiculously rich as everyone in plano tx apparantly is. The whole pitting race against race is pretty retarded imo, but yeah, the fact that asians are clumped as a whole insted of individual sub races, it's kind of hard to standardize your results in what "asians" are generally smarter...

plus there's what 4 billion total in the world? the white logic would apply in numbers there....

[djrajio]

I think also a part of the problem is his reference point, Plano TX. Just doing a quick search on google. You get the following statistics:

http://plano.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Of the 10% population breakdown for Asians in Plano TX, nearly 75% is made up of Asian Indians and Chinese, which comprise, if my memory doesn't fail me, the highest social-economic sub-racial income bracket in the US. (See here for census link). In my experience, many south east asians tend to be severely disadvantaged as a group both socio-economically and academically.

Doing another quick search on google (http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/TX/Plano.html) we find that in Plano TX, the average household income is

$81,551.00 which is nearly double that of the national average ($44,583.00).

This leads me to suspect that the majority of Asians that jl3969 interacts with on a daily basis are from fairly affluent households. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to suggest that more affluent households tend to have the resources and money to help their children with test preparation and that most Chinese and Indian families place a huge emphasis on study/academics. These factors, IMO, might explain why jl3969 perceives Asians are somehow "intellectually" superior and tend to do better in testing.

But as coldrice already has noted, race and intelligence is a controversial subject and I am a firm believer that environmental conditions and cultural influences have a huge effect on testing results. Everybody knows that the SAT doesn't measure how smart you are but how well you test on the SAT...

[jl3969]

i feel like you're clumping "asians" in some huge bracket when it's not that simple. you can't do that simply because the chinese and japanese have roots in america since the 1800's. then came the philipinos. then came the koreans. then came the southeast asians. then came the Indians and Pakistanis...When you break things up that way, you'd probably conclude that you have this middle bunch of folks (the ones that have come to this country due to American fuck ups) that haven't necessarily proven that they are smarter than your average bear. Take a stereotypic look at the hollywood portrayl of the middle bunch, and then you get your generalized idea of how many asians aren't ridiculously rich as everyone in plano tx apparantly is. The whole pitting race against race is pretty retarded imo, but yeah, the fact that asians are clumped as a whole insted of individual sub races, it's kind of hard to standardize your results in what "asians" are generally smarter...

plus there's what 4 billion total in the world? the white logic would apply in numbers there....

yes i understand all of your points. i do know that there are many different lines of heritage as far as each race goes, but my point was that a large majority of asians did not come to this country from any systematic force like blacks did with slavery. the majority of them that did come here came on their own will. Yes there were railroads and such, but still that does not account for the majority of the asian population in america today. most of the ones today either came to fill up engineering jobs before corporations outsourced them TO asia or have parents that came to fill up engineering jobs. therefore, they are more apt to do calculus just like black people are more apt to play basketball. white people have just kind of mellowed off.

i didn't separate asians into their home countries cause nobody separates black people into their home countries. we're talking about race here. the whole point of race is to break down groups of people by basic generalities. there are whites, blacks, browns, yellows. sure there are italians americans and german americans. but theyre still all white. and on the census they're still marked as caucasian. same thing with asians.

and to be clear, if you want to go pure numbers, there will be more dumbshit asians in the world than dumbshit whites. theres just more asians, and since intelligence evens out on the worldwide scale, thats what it comes down to. i'm talking about america. and the asians that made it to america are generally smarter on the average than the blacks or whites in america because of the selection process that got them here..

[jl3969]

I think also a part of the problem is his, reference point, Plano TX. Just doing a quick search on google. You get the following statistics:

http://plano.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Of the 10% population breakdown for Asians in Plano TX, nearly 75% is made up of Asian Indians and Chinese, which comprise, if my memory doesn't fail me, the highest social-economic sub-racial income bracket in the US. (See here for census link). In my experience, many south east asians tend to be severely disadvantaged as a group both socio-economically and academically.

Doing another quick search on google (http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/TX/Plano.html) we find that in Plano TX, the average household income is

$81,551.00 which is nearly double that of the national average ($44,583.00).

This leads me to suspect that the majority of Asians that jl3969 interacts with on a daily basis are from fairly affluent households. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to suggest that more affluent households tend to have the resources and money to help their children with test preparation and that most Chinese and Indian families place more emphasis on study. These factors, IMO, might explain why jl3969 perceives Asians are somehow "intellectually" superior and tend to do better in testing.

yea, i know i come from a rich area (like the rich part of plano, cause that median income is low for my side of town). which is why i believe what i believe even more. because since everybody that lives in my city has a good amount of money, economic factors are out the door. i guess you can claim asian parents are harder on their kids than black parents, but it's not like black parents just let their kids do whatever. to get to where they are and live in the area i live in, they had to work hard themselves, so it's not like there's no pressure at home to do well academically. blacks and whites in my town can afford to send their kids to after school tutors as well as any asian.

looking at my school's report card, i see that asians do better than everybody else.

(http://k-12.pisd.edu/schools/aeis/pshs/pshs_aeis05.pdf)

but you are right about the fact that there are mainly chinese and indians as far as asians go. and by chinese i pretty much mean taiwanese and korean also. but if the system doesn't separate them, i don't either.

[red]

p.s. - red

"shit" is common slang for feces

"redic" is a colloquial term frequently used in place of "delicious" or "fit for consumption"

okay. a little break from the war of words.

so if poo poo is delicious, is that a good or bad thing.

[xcoldricex]

I think also a part of the problem is his reference point, Plano TX. Just doing a quick search on google. You get the following statistics:

http://plano.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

This leads me to suspect that the majority of Asians that jl3969 interacts with on a daily basis are from fairly affluent households. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to suggest that more affluent households tend to have the resources and money to help their children with test preparation and that most Chinese and Indian families place a huge emphasis on study/academics. These factors, IMO, might explain why jl3969 perceives Asians are somehow "intellectually" superior and tend to do better in testing.

this is why people need to get out of their bubbles. i come from an upper-middle class white suburbia (i was one of... 7 minorities in my high school, a few adopted koreans, and not one african american in the entire school system K-12). People just stay there their whole lives- they won't even drive the 20 minutes to detroit because well- it's scary because there's non-whites there (if a black person and drove into the town I grew up in, they would certainly get pulled over). it really makes me angry when people base everything out of the very narrow view they have (and do not realize that it is a narrow view) because i had to grow up in a society filled with people like this and it was painful to have to relate, talk, and deal with their ignorance. so while i can see why jl3969 could think the things he's saying, i still think it's his own oversight that he doesn't realize he's looking at a fraction of the asian population in america.