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2 hours ago, dudewuttheheck said:

and for my tab to be missing

IMO you put too much thought in that red tab. I understand where you are coming from. You were waiting over a year for that pair and of course you want the real deal with all the bells and whistles but like someon already said: CSF is about the imperfections of jeans production and now you really have a true and not planned imperfection.

When I got my '47 jeans while visiting his shop Japan, he did them in a rush in the evening for me. The vertical back seam ist stitched with two different thread colours like you see it on Evisu jeans. It bothered me first as I don't think a pair of '47 features this but @Flash just told to chill and appreciate for what they are...a pair of jeans and a unique one.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Denimseeker said:

 

konata.jpg

you're based in hong kong, right? tell him to take a hike. if anyone should be worried about copyright and intellectual property, it's him.

Edited by conqueror

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3 hours ago, Denimseeker said:

Doc directed me here and I really appreciate the support and understanding from the community. I also think it will be a good idea to further explain the whole situation here so that you can make a good judgement. The ebook itself is a free, educational purpose only, half-public-half-private (due to pre-ordering, I only share to those who give me a heads up, I have no responsibility if you leak the sharing link to others, and btw Mr Konata is not one of my book recipients) pdf file with all the matters I have researched put inside. I value primary evidence a lot so I tend to put original documents and photos into the book as hard as possible (with every single item being quoted) to support my theories and illustrations. That being said, I have exposed myself to the risk of being sued due to copyright issues. This is one of the reasons why the book is released in such a manner. Of course, Mr Konata, or other owners of the related materials, have every right to take legal action if they still think it is a copyright violation. I respect his decision despite the frustration.

The attachment is the email I have received from Mr. Konata on 23 August, his email address and the items involved are being masked.

From the attachment, you can tell there are 6 items being claimed by Mr Konata. One of the items is a screen capture from the "One Piece of Rock" website, a page related to how the brand identifies and describes Levi's denim texture during WW2. I have explained this in my IG stories. You may check it out.

For the rest, since I cannot disclose what items are involved, I can only tell you what information would be lost if I simply delete the items from the ebook.

1. Evidence to support pocket flap was added to 506XX in the mid-1920s.

2. Evidence to support during the beginning of WW2, garment design restriction order L-181 (button number/pocket flap removal) was in effect before order MPR-208 (Adding "S" to garment lot. number).

3. Evidence to support approaches to the end of WW2, garment design restriction order L-181 was abolished before order MPR-208.

4. Evidence to support jacron paper patch was used together with the leather patch for 506XX.

5. Evidence to show the existence of 506XXE and its iconic T-back construction.

Among these 5 items, 14 photos are involved:

4 of them were extracted from a blog of a vintage clothing store in Japan.

8 of them were extracted from a USA auction house website.

2 of them were extracted from the forum "Denimbro", they were uploaded by a member I respect very much. I see him as my teacher in the Levi's research hobby.

None of the pictures has a watermark nor a copyright claim from a particular person/photo taker.

Considering the historical information involved in these 5 items, only items 4 & 5 can be replaced by other materials to tell the same story from my understanding.

I also see there are a lot of people struggling on whether they should continue to wear their CSF jeans. Despite the frustration and disappointment, I still think you should wear them as long as you feel comfortable. After all, they are still very nice jeans sewed by an experienced, passionate Japanese guy. Wearing a pair of CSF jeans in your wardrobe should not be viewed as a particular opinion or standpoint. Just my five cents.

 

konata.jpg

You deserve any and all support given here and elsewhere. At this point his email to you has no legal significance, and from what you have demonstrated it is difficult to see where you are in breech of Japanese copyright law vis-à-vis CSF (Japan signed the Berne Convention and so generally follow copyright law globally) . He seems to be neither author, nor (more importantly) copyright owner.

His coercion is shameful.

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4 hours ago, dudewuttheheck said:

I'm thinking about selling mine still... can't decide right now. Will probably not wear them for a little bit until I make the decision. Some of me is thinking that they're just jeans, but part of me also knows this will be in the back of my head when I wear them. At this point, I think I've won the bad timing awards having waited this long just for this to happen... and for my tab to be missing. Even if he was legally in the right (and I don't think he is) it would still be a dick move and to me, that's the worst part. It's just so incredibly selfish. 

Anyway. Here are some fit photos of the size 34 46 pair while I make my decision. 

pEpfiSb.jpg

xSUVHv3.jpg

6BKSGup.jpg

6t9JWMl.jpg

Don’t want to sound like Ed but they look a bit small in the seat IMO. That’s how my TCBs fit and I never did get over the wedgie fit.

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53 minutes ago, Iron Horse said:

Don’t want to sound like Ed but they look a bit small in the seat IMO. That’s how my TCBs fit and I never did get over the wedgie fit.

Jake’s cakes … that and his perfect hair is why he has a beautiful girl on his arm (although she claims it to be more cerebral) :wink:

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Wow CSF starting to a get a reputation like a certain small one man jeans maker from Kansas…..  
I can totally relate to the situation of your fav pair of jeans being made by a total piece of s***
this CSF sounds like an ass  
glad @Duke Mantee got me hooked on FW so I was never tempted by CSF. Haha 

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14 minutes ago, shredwin_206 said:

Wow CSF starting to a get a reputation like a certain small one man jeans maker from Kansas…..  
I can totally relate to the situation of your fav pair of jeans being made by a total piece of s***
this CSF sounds like an ass  
glad @Duke Mantee got me hooked on FW so I was never tempted by CSF. Haha 

You can’t ever know this stuff until it’s too late bro’ 

There’ll be other things in the background - it’s possible Yoshiaki has overreacted, or there’s some other issue that unfortunately denim seeker has been dragged into - but it’s a poor show.

Anyway, I’ve never told you the dark secrets of FW …

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Posted (edited)

@Denimseeker - Just a quick note about photographic rights - at least here in the US. This may or may not prove helpful. A photographer does not need to make a copyright claim for them to hold copyright. As soon as they make the work (snap the photo), the image is copyrighted to them. They can formally register it (in the US, this is an application sent to the Library of Congress) if they want, but all this does is provide a higher ceiling to claim damages should there ever be litigation. It doesn't strengthen their ownership, just how much money they can claim off of it if someone infringes. So whoever took those pictures holds their copyright, and they are the ones who would normally be able to make a claim on them to begin with. 

Again, I have no idea how it works in Japan, but unless Konata explicitly, and with evidence acquired the rights to the photographs from the auction house (with a contract to prove it), this would be bananas. Any sort of claim of the rights of the likeness of the garments themselves seems super suspect - if they are CSF garments this sounds akin to going after every person who posts themselves wearing them, and if they are vintage Levi's then that's even more preposterous. I know you want to avoid conflict, but if you're feeling cheeky and don't want your project to go away, I personally would ask to see proof of holding the copyright of the images and see what comes back. If he can't produce you could find the original photographer (or auction house that photog worked for) and ask them for clearance, as they would seemingly be the ones in the position to give it...just if you wanted to burnish the legitimacy of the project. The screen grab of the website is something I'm not as sure about. Well, actually I'm not totally sure about any of it because this isn't in a country where I'm familiar with the laws but suffice it to say if he actually has a claim then I think Japan has some pretty wack laws about IP. 

Personally, if spent this much time and passion on a project and someone wanted to be an ass about it like this I would consult a local attorney just in case to get some peace of mind, but unless attorney found something actually worrisome I would publish it AS IS and tell this goofball to take a hike with his garbage.

Edited by AlientoyWorkmachine

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21 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Less bitching and more stitching…

less csf and more...

 

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16 hours ago, Iron Horse said:

Don’t want to sound like Ed but they look a bit small in the seat IMO. That’s how my TCBs fit and I never did get over the wedgie fit.

That's every pair of jeans I've had in the last year. These are at least two inches 2 inches too big in the waist. I don't know how loose I can go in the waist just to get a seat that actually fits.

15 hours ago, Duke Mantee said:

Jake’s cakes … that and his perfect hair is why he has a beautiful girl on his arm (although she claims it to be more cerebral) :wink:

Haha :D It does make jeans sizing difficult. 

19 hours ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

IMO you put too much thought in that red tab. I understand where you are coming from. You were waiting over a year for that pair and of course you want the real deal with all the bells and whistles but like someon already said: CSF is about the imperfections of jeans production and now you really have a true and not planned imperfection.

When I got my '47 jeans while visiting his shop Japan, he did them in a rush in the evening for me. The vertical back seam ist stitched with two different thread colours like you see it on Evisu jeans. It bothered me first as I don't think a pair of '47 features this but @Flash just told to chill and appreciate for what they are...a pair of jeans and a unique one.

Oh yeah you're right. If I hadn't waited so long, I probably wouldn't be thinking about it so much. To be clear: If I do sell them, it absolutely will not be because of the tab. 

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Posted (edited)

@dudewuttheheck, have you looked into either FW or Sugar Cane jeans? I think you’ll find their 47 models might suit you more, IMO.

Edited by Iron Horse

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On 8/24/2021 at 5:47 AM, conqueror said:

Reminds me a bit of full count going after TCB, which is another ridiculous case and made me stop supporting FC altogether. 

What was the story behind this? I've never heard of this before.

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4 hours ago, Iron Horse said:

@dudewuttheheck, have you looked into either FW or Sugar Cane jeans? I think you’ll find their 47 models might suit you more, IMO.

I'll look again,  but last time I checked the Sugar Canes the measurements didn't work for me. I should give FW another look. I had a pair from them previously thst I liked.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Cold Summer said:

What was the story behind this? I've never heard of this before.

The first round of ‘20s contest jeans, a few years ago, had Levi’s-style arcs that overshot the diamond stitch & were meant to be picked, very similar to the ones Fullcount was using at the time

A few months into the contest, Fullcount got wind of it and demanded that all pairs of jeans were returned to TCB and disposed of; this cost TCB (still a pretty small brand at the time) quite a bit, & a slew of folks lost interest and didn’t end up asking for replacement pairs, so the contest ended up a bit smaller too 

The whole thing left a bitter taste in many folks’ mouths—I wasn’t involved in the contest in the first place, but, like @conqueror, this made me lose all interest in supporting Fullcount in the future

(As if to add insult to injury, they announced less than a year later that they were going to stop including arcs on their jeans all together…)

Edited by julian-wolf

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I think the contestants had to return the jeans at their own expense too!

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Oh yeah, now I sort of remember hearing something about that. Definitely a jerk move... I still like my 1108s I've worn for the past few years (bought before they removed the arcs, though the arcs on my pair disintegrated a long time ago!) but wouldn't buy more. In part because they modified the cut so that the inseam on my waist size is a couple inches too short for me.

It's interesting how our perception of brands can change based on their misbehavior. Since I actually worked at Flat Head and frequently had unpleasant experiences (especially toward the end) and ended up feeling like the company/people running it were at least a little crazy, you'd think that completely soured me on them, yet I continue to wear and enjoy my Flat Head gear and think highly of their work (at least up to their reorganization, after which I don't know very much) despite all that. I guess in the end, I concluded that you had to be a bit crazy to produce the kind of Flat Head stuff I liked. I just decided I didn't want to be involved in the inner workings of it anymore.

I've never really been into CSF so I don't have a dog in this fight but his behavior does seem extremely ridiculous, and combined with the outrageous prices and wait time I don't know why I'd put up with that rather than go with perfectly good jeans offered by brands like Ooe, Freewheelers, and Warehouse. Of course Warehouse's main line is about as vintage-y as I really care to get (and what, half as expensive as CSF?), so I'm not too hard to please in this department.

What I can say is that I completely stopped shopping at one retailer because I found their extremely opinionated and obnoxious behavior on social media completely off-putting and basically a direct assault on customers (like me) who were not in line with their particular agenda, intentionally goading their customers via social media and posting private emails to advance a certain narrative about themselves. I don't demand brands or retailers believe all (or any) of the same things as I do, but this behavior was so childish and unprofessional that it completely ruined my opinion of this store and eradicated any desire to ever spend more money with them. Another store I stopped following when I got sick of all their social media posts slamming a particular sports team (even though I'm not a fan of either team.) It is really weird just how much of this kind of unprofessional behavior I've seen from retailers who seem totally oblivious to how bad this makes them look and probably hurts their business.

 

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2 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

I think the contestants had to return the jeans at their own expense too!

Fortunately we did not, it was covered by Signet (if I recall correctly they helped sponsor that contest?)
I returned that pair, I wasn't into the new back pocket design. And it left me not at all interested in FC...

2 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

What I can say is that I completely stopped shopping at one retailer because I found their extremely opinionated and obnoxious behavior on social media completely off-putting 

This one resonates with me a lot, if a shop is annoying on social media I'll unfollow and not really consider buying product from them.
Social media generally annoys me, which is why I almost exclusively follow Japanese dudes posting pictures of their jeans without the fluff.
Or I just can't make sense of the fluff because I don't know any Japanese. :D
Curious which shops are being mentioned here (not looking for any muckraking of course, just genuinely curious). I probably don't follow them but it seems pretty brash.
Not sure how well that would work out for attracting potential customers!

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4 hours ago, Broark said:

I almost exclusively follow Japanese dudes posting pictures of their jeans

It’s the only way I can use social media at this point in my life

My wife was initially confused why I had no swimsuit models or bare knuckle boxing on my feed, but now she gets it

I just want pictures of jeans

As far as this whole situation with DS and Konaka goes, I understand why people wouldn’t want to buy CSF going forward but if you feel pressured into selling your stuff because you/people are upset (rightfully upset) you’re getting at this whole deal wrong… just wear the jeans. They’re damn good. Start supporting the handful of other great brands going forward 

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Holy smokes, he really is the Japanese version of the WH Ranch guy! Lol.

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Lol well that’s one way to get a bunch of no interest loans to run your business 

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1 hour ago, Small Potato said:

In Japan, when you buy a pair from CSF, you need to write a pledge with your signature, promising the purchaser will never resell them or give them away regardless of any reasons. They take a scan of your ID as well when you buy jeans. It's already ridiculous. Are they selling a house or a car?

They know they put soo--- much profit on their products so they need to keep the price as high as possible by 

prohibiting people to sell their jeans as well as by controlling the distribution amount in the market by themselves.  Each jeans has a specific ID and if any CSF jeans are found sold on JP e-bay or at resell shop, they can track down who bought them in the first place and CSF sends the empty threat like the one DenimSeeker received this time.

They kinda feed off the psychology of people. The rarer it seems it is, the more you want it, right?

If you are a first customer to buy CSF and S series which Konaka himself makes, you need to fill up their loyalty card by buying clothings from 49ers shop which CSF runs. Do you know how much you need to buy to fill up one loyalty card? it's about 2000USD. After spending 2000 USD at their shop, a person can finally get a right to buy S series, which costs about 500~600USD. Great business model, huh? What's more disgusting is that he once a year scatters little papers from the rooftop of the shop like an exceptionally rich guy do when he ,for instance, won stupid amount of money at casino or something. Those little papers work as the right to buy S series and poor, blinded denim fans deceived by CSF desperately run and jump around to catch the papers while Konaka himself watching people do so, putting a smile on his face.

For overseas customers, things might be different but that's how they sell their jeans in Japan.

It's just beyond disgusting which my English doesn't allow me to express properly. 

I think I will delete my posts before he or his devout believers find them and attack me! But believe me and what I wrote. I work for a denim weaving factory. I will post his empty thread letter if I get one lol. I just want all the denim fans to know the truth behind this brand or Konaka's personality.

Ye gods, he's like the Jeff Bezos of the Japanese denim world !

Think he may have definitely lost a customer or two here now. 

 

 

 

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The CSF dumpster fire stinks more by the minute! :ph34r2: So glad I never got into them. 

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17 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

What I can say is that I completely stopped shopping at one retailer because I found their extremely opinionated and obnoxious behavior on social media completely off-putting and basically a direct assault on customers (like me) who were not in line with their particular agenda, intentionally goading their customers via social media and posting private emails to advance a certain narrative about themselves.

That Christophe, he’s a right character isn’t he? :wink:

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9 hours ago, Small Potato said:

It's just beyond disgusting which my English doesn't allow me to express properly. 

@Small Potato

I think your English expressed it quite well and thank you for your perspective. Those practices are funny, if also sad - but just show insecurity (and marketing savvy, unfortunately). It sounds like CSF has much more in common with Supreme and other hype brands than they'd like to admit. 

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not much to say other than; yikes...

certainly I wonder if he has some frustrations at the number of other ww2 models that have bloomed and variously benefitted/-ing from his wagon trail [as well as the practice of marked-up re-selling which I am guessing some of the practices described above seem in part to target and negate], but limits of property and propriety seem to be getting tested ...

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Posted (edited)

This thread is getting very interesting. Do CSF talk much about their denim/s (mills and cottons used) or make any specific claims about painstakingly attempting to replicate the historic Cone denims that Levi’s would have used during the WW2 era? Or are they happy to allow people to assume, based on their detailed sewing approach, that they go to great lengths in recreating period-correct denim/s.

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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Man CSF might actually be taking the top place instead of WH Ranch Scamshow  
dude sounds like total trash of a person 

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I think there’s enough room at the top of trash people mountain for them both. 

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