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Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.


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6 hours ago, ColonelAngus said:

what are they lacking in quality exactly when compared to other boot companies? Not liking RW's aesthetics is one thing but not liking them because of the leather quality or construction is another, and something you omitted.Like I said, I don't own any RW's so I don't really have an objective opinion on the quality of their boots, i'm just curious why you think RW is so overrated and not up to the same level of quality as other companies? Is it because a lot of guys wear them and can be found anywhere?

The leather did not seem up to the same level as other boots such as Wesco, Viberg, etc.

 

Also, the stitching and construction was definitely less than stellar which is why I did not buy a pair. I'm not the only person who has seen mediocre construction quality from Red Wing so I know that my experience is some isolated incident. 

@oomslokop lol I will admit that owning the likes of Clinch makes me a bit of a snob, but even so, I still can appreciate less expensive products. I still wear my Vietnamese Clark's desert boots that I bought for $45 and from what I have seen, were actually better stitched and constructed than some (and please note that I said some) of the Red Wings I have seen.

 

I'm not trying to tell everyone to hate Red Wing. I just think they are overrated and I dislike them. Everyone is allowed their own opinion and I think mine is at least well-founded

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Sure, whoever thinks Iron Rangers and a Gustin jeans are the best ever is overrating them, but I still think that it's not fair to compare boots that belong to completely different price levels. It's another thing to say that RW is maybe a tad overpriced for the quality they deliver ;) 

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2 hours ago, Cucoo said:

Of course the leather used on a boot that's 500$ more expensive will be better than on a pair of RW. I think the point is RW are still solid and not garbage. They're not high end, they're not crap, they're just solid boots. That's why comparing them to Viberg or thinking they're the best ever is silly.

Maybe you should read my post again, didn't I say that the comparison isn't totally fair

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11 hours ago, ColonelAngus said:

maybe i'm missing something but aren't boots supposed to get creasing in the toe box with wear? I have a pair of Alden Indy's and the toe box became creased after a couple of wears. Maybe that's the nature of CXL but I would certainly expect creasing from cowhide regardless of the brand or tanning process. The thickness of the leather might also play a role in how it wears. I think we're nitpicking too. If a person were to use their boots for their intended purpose, which is manual labor, then they would in fact get beat to hell and back, and I doubt that person would complain as much as we do about a superficial cosmetic wrinkle.

Well, my Vibergs haven't any creasing even after hundreds of wears. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course. This is mine, nothing more. And I'm still wearing those Beckmans occasionally, today in fact.

Edited by mrman
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Just a quick note that whether the leather creases or not depends on a variety of factors such as structuring of the toe, rough out, tannages, etc...It's not a certain method for gauging quality. 

Edited by mikecch
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On the subject of creasing by the toe box, of which I'm not a big fan, does the structured/partially structured/un structured have any bearing on how much boots will crease?

Edit, just saw Mikes post. Please enlighten me sir?:D

Edited by Geeman
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3 hours ago, Cucoo said:

Sure, whoever thinks Iron Rangers and a Gustin jeans are the best ever is overrating them, but I still think that it's not fair to compare boots that belong to completely different price levels. It's another thing to say that RW is maybe a tad overpriced for the quality they deliver ;) 

I did say that. I said they aren't actually worth the price and it would be worth it to step up to Wesco based on the pricing.

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On 3/26/2017 at 10:27 PM, mikecch said:

I'm curious which brands you guys are buying still on Rakuten? 

@mikecch - why did you ask that question? 

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@mpukas

Just curious as to what people are interested in nowadays. And also I have not bought anything from Rakuten that's denim related for a few years now... 

 

Re: Red Wing, nothing wrong with them, but they are certainly not enthusiast boots... The reason I say this is that for the same price or even just an extra $50 or so, much nicer boots can be purchased from smaller makers in both America and elsewhere, though to put the effort into making these smarter purchases, one really has to be a hobbyist. Red Wing is a much easier buy: try them in a store, don't need to worry about lasts and heel heights, don't need to bring your own leather, etc. 

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10 minutes ago, goodrain said:

Sagara Boots(Indonesia) and Unmarked(Mexico) boots cost the same as Red Wings but the quality seem much better IMO

True. My brother has a pair of Sagara that are very well made. Some of the leather options are fairly poor, but the construction is quite a lot better than Red Wing and competitive with many higher-end makers.

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1 hour ago, goodrain said:

Sagara Boots(Indonesia) and Unmarked(Mexico) boots cost the same as Red Wings but the quality seem much better IMO

I own a pair of Unmarkeds.  They're competitive quality wise with Yuketen.  Customer service sucks though.

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5 hours ago, mikecch said:

Just a quick note that whether the leather creases or not depends in a variety of factors such as structuring of the toe, rough out, tannages, etc...It's not a certain method for gauging quality. 

I 2nd this, as I was going to say the same thing. Leather creasing at the toe is not neccessarliy a sign of the leather quality. 

 

It is probable that some leathers that Alden, the PNW makers, English makers, and other higher-end makers use is "better", but when talking about Horween CXL and other similar leathers, I don't think they have anything over RW's better leathers (Feahterstone, Settler). RW owns S.B. Foot Tanning Co., which has been in operation since 1872. 

2 hours ago, mikecch said:

... The reason I say this is that for the same price or even just an extra $50 or so, much nicer boots can be purchased from smaller makers in both America and elsewhere, though to put the effort into making these smarter purchases, one really has to be a hobbyist. 

Care to drop some names of makers that produce a boot that retails at $350 - $400 that's "much nicer" the Beckman Round at $350? I do not consider Wolverine, Chippewa or Thorogood better in any way. Oakstreet's lowest priced 6" boot is $400 for one particular leather, and the others are $426+ (no thanks). Indy's are $530+. Nick's stock Robert is $464. You can't really get into a Russell Moccasin boot for under $400. The only boot that I can come up with that I'd buy before the Beckman in that price range in the Chinese-made Grant Stone. 

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7 hours ago, itsbenhere said:

Hey mike, what do you think of r.m. Williams?

I like them, one of the best Chelsea makers around. My pair of custom camel leather craftsman boots are my most worn boots of all time! 

The downside is that they don't use leather midsoles, have very limited customisation options, and since the LVMH (?) buy out the pricing has jumped up significantly. 

7 hours ago, Geeman said:

On the subject of creasing by the toe box, of which I'm not a big fan, does the structured/partially structured/un structured have any bearing on how much boots will crease?

Edit, just saw Mikes post. Please enlighten me sir?:D

Hey, I haven't noticed any hard and fast observations, but I think it's the interactions between boot-feet shape-gait. 

One of my most worn shoes is a pair of Tender shoes made by William Lennon, no crease after 5 years of weekly wear. 

My Indy's creased after the 2nd day. 

 

@mpukas

Thinking about American boots, some Spokane makers such as Frank's and JK can be had at around $350 to 450, and the build quality us at least as good as White's etc, or so I've heard. 

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7 hours ago, mikecch said:

Just a quick note that whether the leather creases or not depends on a variety of factors such as structuring of the toe, rough out, tannages, etc...It's not a certain method for gauging quality. 

To wit, here's creasing on a pair of Lofgrens in CXL (from VEB):

%25255BUNSET%25255D.png

 

And on a pair of horsebutt Attractions (from A See on DB):

IMG_4849.JPG

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A respectable shoe maker once said to me that creasing (if it happens with just a couple of wears) is usually a sign of sizing problems or bad leather quality or both. Of course there might be other factors too like if the shoe has an upturned toe box. There is the possibility that he was just full of shit but I believed him as he is a professional after all. But it was quite easy to believe him as he was not trying to sell me anything.

And as I said earlier my opinion on RWs is based on the one pair I have and maybe my pair is qualitywise a one-off. I'm not trying to convince anyone that you shouldn't buy RWs, hopefully no one is trying to do the opposite here either. So no disrespect to any owners or lovers of RWs. 

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11 minutes ago, mrman said:

A respectable shoe maker once said to me that creasing (if it happens with just a couple of wears) is usually a sign of sizing problems or bad leather quality or both. Of course there might be other factors too like if the shoe has an upturned toe box. There is the possibility that he was just full of shit but I believed him as he is a professional after all. But it was quite easy to believe him as he was not trying to sell me anything.

I'm no creasing expert, but a cursory search turned up this:

http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2016/11/mythbuster-part-1-leather-creasing-means-something-is-wrong.html

Quote

MYTHBUSTER PART 1 – LEATHER CREASING MEANS SOMETHING IS WRONG

Leather creases. Plain and simple. There is no such thing as crease free leather...I have seen the best leather wrinkle like there is no tomorrow (on a bespoke shoe no less) and the worst leather maintain perfect shape. 

-Let me start by saying that bad fit will certainly lead to bad creasing, but that does not mean that good fit won’t either.

-Leather will now be the next thing that comes about. Good or bad leather do not make a difference most of the time. 

-The next and one of the most critical reasoning for leather creasing is the model of shoe. Plain toe shoes will always crease more and whole cuts in general will most likely crease the most. 

You take in all these factors for every single pair of shoes and feet inside them and the outcome determines the amount of creasing. You can take the exact same shoe and two different people who take the same size, and creasing between them will be different. 

I have nothing against creasing, in fact I think it can look good. Some examples:

MF Road Champ:

7dacdd8c2393f645aaa303fa2ee7b2c7.jpg

 

Clinch engineer:

503b3c85ac6aea58befa95048bc23cce.jpg

'40s Chippewa:

Vintage-Chippewa-Engineer-Boots-1.jpg

Role Club horsehide:

76043EC2-431A-4FCE-A9FF-87FF8172390A.jpg

Buco horsehide:

Buco-Horsehide-2.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Iron Horse said:

It's on Internet, it must be true :D

I don't like creasing and you do. We are both entitled to our opinions, so there should not be any agenda to find a winner here. It is just pointless, let's just agree that we disagree.

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10 minutes ago, mrman said:

It's on Internet, it must be true :D

I don't like creasing and you do. We are both entitled to our opinions, so there should not be any agenda to find a winner here. It is just pointless, let's just agree that we disagree.

?

I'm not arguing, just hoping that people can learn something out of all this. 

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Hey, as someone who collects leathers, I would like to say that some leathers crease, some don't, creasing at points of stress is not a sign of inferior tannage or bad raw hide. Sometimes there are issues with loose grain due to vascular of the hide, etc, but that's not the same thing as creasing with wear. 

 

How a leather creases depends on a whole heap of factors: tannages, finishing, oil content, age of animal, thickness, etc. What I've learnt in my attempts at getting shoes and boots custom made with all sorts of weird leathers over the years is that the main point is selecting appropriate leather for the job you want it to do. Problematic creasing as a sign of poor quality leather can only be determined when you compare apples with apples. 

 

For example, many waxed rough-out leathers (waxed flesh) don't tend to crease, whereas Badalassi Carlo's Minerva leather creases heavily and finely. However, from a leather purist point of view, Minerva is miles ahead of the vast majority of footwear leathers including whichever waxed flesh. 

 

There are many ways of judging qualities of leathers, but the current market is so confused that things are hard to gauge without lots of experience. I bet your local cobbler would not have imagined work boots made with custom wallet grade leathers :D

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The local cobbler / the bloke in the pub is a John Lobb employee and he should know the characteristics of high grade leathers even though he doesn't work in the field of work boots. Obviously you won't and don't have to believe me.

I find it pretty strange that voicing one's opinion (both mine and I guess dude's too) on the matter have been met with this kind zeal to point out that one is wrong in his opinion / reasoning. Therefore it's better to just shut up on the matter. Peace. Over and out.

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I'm neither rubbishing nor disputing your opinion, simply pointing out that the evidence you provided is no more valid than IH's, which, you ridiculed.

It's all opinions to us anyway, apart from those with a specialist knowledge of these matters and the John Lobby employee may well be one of those, as indeed may mikecch.

My RW moc-toes are fine in a rough and ready way and I'm happy to wear them in the park with the kids, going to watch sporting events (where they may be trampled on in crowds) and as my drinking boots, basically occasions where I don't want to wear Alfred Sargent, Trickers, etc. I got them in a sale years ago for half-price (or less) and have been very happy with the value and will gladly have them resoled.

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28 minutes ago, mrman said:

The local cobbler / the bloke in the pub is a John Lobb employee and he should know the characteristics of high grade leathers even though he doesn't work in the field of work boots. Obviously you won't and don't have to believe me.

I find it pretty strange that voicing one's opinion (both mine and I guess dude's too) on the matter have been met with this kind zeal to point out that one is wrong in his opinion / reasoning. Therefore it's better to just shut up on the matter. Peace. Over and out.

Relax, I'm not running to the defense of anything; I was intrigued by dude's comment as I didn't really know what creasing was a sign of. I looked at examples of the best boots out there and saw creasing in all of them, so it's my guess that it's not really a sign of low-quality leather. I posted examples because I like boot porn and as a reference for everybody to enjoy.

If people don't like creasing that's cool, if they do that's cool too. 

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Don't want to press this issue too much, but I also don't want novice boot lovers to obsess over whether their toe box creases or not, and neglect to learn how to appreciate and assess leather.

I have in front of me three of the world's last remaining vegetable true-pit-tanned leathers. A single hide of these leathers would cost more than many boots we see here. Leathers really don't get better than this, regardless of whether Lobb is making your shoe or Hermes is making your handbag. The actual tannages of these leathers surpass that of shell cordovan from any tannery. 

They all crease. 

Edited by mikecch
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