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Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.


cmboland

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Retail scene in America is crazy right now.. I+W probably closing down, Unionmade just closed 2 of their stores, Reed Space closed down, and Carson Street Clothiers too.  Those are all fairly big names to be closing all within a 4 month period.

Edited by kiya
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I think tanuki will do just fine. Redditors will eat this stuff up like they do oni. If I was starting brand I'd look to the demographic that's gonna pull the most volume and that's def Reddit these days.

I might add that if the brand has created such a stir (amongst industry insiders such as retailers no less) it's still creating buzz. No press is bad press and all that... Unless you're lawless denim et al.

 

 

I seriously don't understand the elitism of Superdenim sometimes. The actual users on /r/rawdenim aren't fucking stupid, and no one is falling for Tanuki's bullshit marketing. Are there some people that are giving them a shot? Of course, but that's because they want to evaluate the product and see if behind the gimmicks, there exists a item that's worth having. 

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I think Super Jackle didn’t want to say that Redditors are stupid because they would buy Tanuki’s marketing strategy.

 

Presumably, he just wanted to emphasize that cuts and fabrics similar to what Oni uses sell well with the demographic at Reddit and therefore, Tanuki could possibly be successful as well.

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Well, the reason no one is buying them is the same reason they have to resort to gimmicks. What is special about them that warrants a purchase?

People here have warehouse, full count, SDA... These are all amazing brands, best case scenario is Tanuki is as good, I doubt it'd be better because at this level it's all subjective criteria. Why buy a brand just because it's new if it doesn't offer anything compelling and unique?

 

Warning: Not defending Tanuki, because from my perspective, they look like any other MomoPureBlueStrikeHead pair with a whole lot of dumb marketing attaching. This whole discussion has made me think about this idea, so this is really more of an open question to the community.

 

What can a new denim company do these days, product-wise, to really differentiate themselves in a positive way? Iron Heart kind of has a monopoly on the super heavy, super durable market. A number of brands, such as Strike Gold (especially with their new SE collab), PBJ, Oni, etc, compete for massive texture. CSF, TCB, and others are reaching the quality asymptote while staying true to the idea of a vintage Levi's repro. N&F has cornered the market on super crazy, gimmicky ideas. The term "peak selvedge" as another user put it, is fucking hilarious to me, but the idea behind it seems to ring true in the current denim market which is so over-saturated with brands filling every niche and taste. 

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I think Super Jackle didn’t want to say that Redditors are stupid because they would buy Tanuki’s marketing strategy.

 

Presumably, he just wanted to emphasize that cuts and fabrics similar to what Oni uses sell well with the demographic at Reddit and therefore, Tanuki could possibly be successful as well.

 

Maybe my brain was being a bit uncharitable after a night of too much Wild Turkey 101  :blink:  :blink:  :blink:

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What can a new denim company do these days, product-wise, to really differentiate themselves in a positive way? Iron Heart kind of has a monopoly on the super heavy, super durable market. A number of brands, such as Strike Gold (especially with their new SE collab), PBJ, Oni, etc, compete for massive texture. CSF, TCB, and others are reaching the quality asymptote while staying true to the idea of a vintage Levi's repro. N&F has cornered the market on super crazy, gimmicky ideas. The term "peak selvedge" as another user put it, is fucking hilarious to me, but the idea behind it seems to ring true in the current denim market which is so over-saturated with brands filling every niche and taste.

There's no reason more brands can't enter those sub-markets if they do it well. Key is transparency & provenance. People like that.

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What can a new denim company do these days, product-wise, to really differentiate themselves in a positive way?

In my opinion these really nothing you can do, which was one of my points in an earlier post; this seems negative and maybe just in creative, but I think it's true when:

1. There are constraints to what you can do because the nature of it is pretty rigid: 5 pocket denim. How different can you possibly get? As soon as you et really different you're drifting from the nature of raw denim, traditional etc

2. We're in the tail end of huge popularity of raw denim so the most things have been tried at this point.

I agree that redditors may eat it up but not because they are dumb, instead because they are less interested in the brand character than us here. If they were, I don't think oni or whatever big monster slub brand is popular there, all they care about is the product itself. And that's fine and you'll probably get a lot of cool stuff that you like, it's just that it's a less discriminatory view.

My biggest problem with Tanuki is that they are saying they are uniquely good when they are not, just good, and that they have to shove that marketing down your throat. If the goal is to have the jeans speak for yourselves but most people who give a shit are focused on the stupid marketing I think your marketing has failed.

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Yeah so about that month and a half old post... Haha.

B_F and Ben got my point across pretty well. I might add that generally, and I try not to generalize but here I am, many redditors are new to the game. I know when I was new, mystery weavers, crazy slub, heavy weight was how I knew or assumed a pair was different, high quality, and thus "worth the money". I'd say these attributes are favored at Reddit by the vast majority of users, and when combined with the ultimately modern and slim fits which are favored by many there, tanuki seems to be a perfect match.

Let's move this back to the tanuki thread now that Mike has created it.

Edited by SuperJackle
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Can a mod please move all the Tanuki posts from here and Unknown Japanese Brands thread to the Tanuki thread for easier referencing in the future. Pretty please and thank you!

If nothing else, Tanuki has generated some good discussions here. Good to have things stirred up once in a while :)

Edited by mikecch
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Yeah so about that month and a half old post... Haha.

B_F and Ben got my point across pretty well. I might add that generally, and I try not to generalize but here I am, many redditors are new to the game. I know when I was new, mystery weavers, crazy slub, heavy weight was how I knew or assumed a pair was different, high quality, and thus "worth the money". I'd say these attributes are favored at Reddit by the vast majority of users, and when combined with the ultimately modern and slim fits which are favored by many there, tanuki seems to be a perfect match.

Let's move this back to the tanuki thread now that Mike has created it.

Interesting you mention this, because I've come full circle. I started off with modern fit Edwin's with funky denim ~11 years ago, went through a SDA and Sugar Cane phase, but nowadays I'm more than happy to wear lifter's cut Japan Blue or secret denim master pants.

I think to keep the fire burning and the hobby alive for yourself, you either need a local scene, or you need to keep trying new things and get connected with people new to the hobby because that enthusiasm rubs off.

Reddit, whilst not perfect, is the largest community for raw denim... Up to 20 times more clicks per day than SuFu. They may not all be trendsetters, but you gotta respect that traffic.

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It really depends on so many things... how they fit on the wearer, the denim weight, if it's sanforized, how often they're washed, how they're washed, the type of stitching on the jean, how abrasive the denim is when raw, what the wearer is doing in them, etc..

I have a pair of 14oz jeans i've worn every day for 3 years and 1 month, every single day, they're literally the only jeans i've worn during that period. They're at a point now where they need to be repaired every 6 weeks, which is more annoying than anything.. and that's the only reason they're gonna get retired soon.

Kiya, are you willing to say which denim your were wearing for those 3+ years? I did something similar back in the day with some cheap APC (2 1/2 years). This was before I was exposed to better options and out of college lol. Edited by mlwdp
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I seriously don't understand the elitism of Superdenim sometimes. The actual users on /r/rawdenim aren't fucking stupid, and no one is falling for Tanuki's bullshit marketing. Are there some people that are giving them a shot? Of course, but that's because they want to evaluate the product and see if behind the gimmicks, there exists a item that's worth having. 

I'm with you on this. The elitism is strong on here. 

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Kiya, are you willing to say which denim your were wearing for those 3+ years? I did something similar back in the day with some cheap APC (2 1/2 years). This was before I was exposed to better options and out of college lol.

I believe they are Stevenson. He also wore RJB for a couple years straight if I remember correctly. Best faded pair of jeans I have ever seen and inspired me to get my first RJB jeans.

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I agree that redditors may eat it up but not because they are dumb, instead because they are less interested in the brand character than us here. If they were, I don't think oni or whatever big monster slub brand is popular there, all they care about is the product itself. And that's fine and you'll probably get a lot of cool stuff that you like, it's just that it's a less discriminatory view.

 

I think its interesting that here brands like Oni, Strike Gold, PBJ, etc. are considering "crazy" compared to say Warehouse or Full Count. The reality is that at the end of the day, they are all 5 pocket, indigo twill weave pants, and all the details that we pore over and inflate are largely moot, especially once you hit the ~$300 price threshold. The one meaningful difference between what is popular over at /r/Rawdenim and here is the preference in fit. I honestly think that to a certain extent, we are a little too obsessed with story over substance.

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Arguing against the idea that we're too obsessed with story over substance is not an argument I'd want to make!

 

On the other hand, i do think that Oni, Strike Gold, PBJ, are fundamentally different compared to SDA, Flat Head, Warehouse... in my opinion you could argue that the former are trying to turn denim into something it isn't: a fabric with burlap-sack texture, super bumpy, etc. I think you could take denim from any period and you will never get textures like the former brands, it'd feel much more like the latter.

 

But I also think it's nice to have improvements and different looks, because if raw denim nowadays was 100% replicated from the 1950s, there's no way I'd be as interested in it as I am now. I love how all the newer legit brands look much more than the old stuff.

 

And I also really like hank-dyed stuff too, which has a way different texture than the latter brands I mentioned and also from how denim used to be... but I do think that there are real distinctions between brands even in a niche as small as this.

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Arguing against the idea that we're too obsessed with story over substance is not an argument I'd want to make!

 

On the other hand, i do think that Oni, Strike Gold, PBJ, are fundamentally different compared to SDA, Flat Head, Warehouse... in my opinion you could argue that the former are trying to turn denim into something it isn't: a fabric with burlap-sack texture, super bumpy, etc. I think you could take denim from any period and you will never get textures like the former brands, it'd feel much more like the latter.

 

But I also think it's nice to have improvements and different looks, because if raw denim nowadays was 100% replicated from the 1950s, there's no way I'd be as interested in it as I am now. I love how all the newer legit brands look much more than the old stuff.

 

And I also really like hank-dyed stuff too, which has a way different texture than the latter brands I mentioned and also from how denim used to be... but I do think that there are real distinctions between brands even in a niche as small as this.

i think you may even be oversimplifying (though I'm sure it was for the sake of brevity).

 

I Would argue that there are at least 4 or 5 "categories" you could put raw denim into now.

 

I'm not usually into too much texture like what Oni and PBJ offer, but I will say that my hank dyed pbjs are the most awe inspiring pair of pants I have ever own or even seen.

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Link to Kiya's pair shown on Heddel's fade friday last yearhttp://www.heddels.com/2015/03/fade-friday-stevenson-727-la-jolla-19-months-10-washes/

 

I was really considering buying a pair during R&H store anniversary sale, but am waiting for their RJB collab instead. I will buy a pair one day i'm sure

Edited by Niro
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Retail scene in America is crazy right now.. I+W probably closing down, Unionmade just closed 2 of their stores, Reed Space closed down, and Carson Street Clothiers too.  Those are all fairly big names to be closing all within a 4 month period.

 

Not surprised to hear about I+W. Was in their Nashville shop in May, and there was minimal denim inventory, and just about all the non denim related items that had been there the prior spring were gone.  Didn't seem long for the world.  

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What can a new denim company do these days, product-wise, to really differentiate themselves in a positive way?

 

<snip>

 

The term "peak selvedge" as another user put it, is fucking hilarious to me, but the idea behind it seems to ring true in the current denim market which is so over-saturated with brands filling every niche and taste. 

 

Very little or nothing.  The market is over-saturated, and anyone starting a new denim brand now is attempting to capitalize on a ship that set sail a while ago.  I suspect the Japanese brands that have been around 20 or 30 years are going to be fine, because what they're doing has more to to with classic style rather than modern trends.  Any brand counting on things I'd consider to be gimmicks (over the top denim weight, slub, or details that really don't add anything to the jeans), or cuts that are seasonal rather than timeless, are going to find themselves in a bad spot.  I'd suspect a lot of these newer US brands are going to find themselves in trouble too.  All using similar leg shapes (and none of them particularly flattering IMO) with the same Cone denim, charging as much as or more than the Japanese brands, in a market where people now seem less inclined to spend over $200 on a pair of jeans.        

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Not surprised to hear about I+W. Was in their Nashville shop in May, and there was minimal denim inventory, and just about all the non denim related items that had been there the prior spring were gone. Didn't seem long for the world.

They made a great denim 11oz western shirt a few years back that I'm still mad to this day I missed out on. They also use to stock custom White's bounty hunters.

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^That was last year. We need update pics!

 

 

I'm still wearing them! It's been 3 years and 1 month, only jean i've worn (with the exception of 2 days wearing a Boncoura jean).

Will shoot some photos of them when after i wash them in a couple of weeks.

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(with the exception of 2 days wearing a Boncoura jean)

 

 

I'm really excited about what's coming from Boncoura, are you wearing the 66's or the XX's?

Pending measurements when they finally land in stores I'll be grabbing a pair of XX's.  :ph34r:

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