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Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.


cmboland

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Interesting discussion going on here about all the B&M stores targeting Denimio, how about Okayama Denim?
It's not 2007 anymore, so why can't consumers in this day and age have the option to access Japanese denim at their domestic retail price through online shopping?
It's a complex issue for all the B&M stores world wide for sure, but there is a sense that they all feel "entitled" to charge customers inflated prices and the local customers should just eat it up because that's the way it should be?

It was mentioned somewhere that the sales volume of TFH in the western market is so small compared to their Japanese domestic market, if this is true for a brand like TFH, why would other smaller brands even care much about growing the western market? Quite frankly if sites like Denimio or OD are forced to shut down or lose accounts, consumers will be the big losers, while the B&M stores laugh all the way to the banks like it's 2007.

People often say these B&M stores offer the best customer service etc., what else have they got going for them for the prices they are charging? They might as well shut the door and go home if they offer a mediocre customer service at those prices.
Not everybody lives next to a B&M store, for those that don't, are they supposed to just buy through the websites of the B&M stores in their own country? How do you try them on before you buy them in this case?

How about stop feeling entitled to say the word "undercut" and just give them a break?
The fact of the matter is these B&M stores choose to go into a business selling brands which have an extremely limited market interest, times are getting tough and now they are crying foul.

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Okayama Denim is widely considered to be pretty awful, there have been a lot of reports of bad customer service and other issues with them. Doesn't seem that Denimio has this problem, though I haven't bought from them myself.

Never had an issue with OD, but i've ordered from them once

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Interesting discussion going on here about all the B&M stores targeting Denimio, how about Okayama Denim?

It's not 2007 anymore, so why can't consumers in this day and age have the option to access Japanese denim at their domestic retail price through online shopping?

It's a complex issue for all the B&M stores world wide for sure, but there is a sense that they all feel "entitled" to charge customers inflated prices and the local customers should just eat it up because that's the way it should be?

It was mentioned somewhere that the sales volume of TFH in the western market is so small compared to their Japanese domestic market, if this is true for a brand like TFH, why would other smaller brands even care much about growing the western market? Quite frankly if sites like Denimio or OD are forced to shut down or lose accounts, consumers will be the big losers, while the B&M stores laugh all the way to the banks like it's 2007.

People often say these B&M stores offer the best customer service etc., what else have they got going for them for the prices they are charging? They might as well shut the door and go home if they offer a mediocre customer service at those prices.

Not everybody lives next to a B&M store, for those that don't, are they supposed to just buy through the websites of the B&M stores in their own country? How do you try them on before you buy them in this case?

How about stop feeling entitled to say the word "undercut" and just give them a break?

The fact of the matter is these B&M stores choose to go into a business selling brands which have an extremely limited market interest, times are getting tough and now they are crying foul.

 

I get where you are coming from, I do, but the fact of the matter is that most brick and mortar stores are not making a lot of money from the sales of those brands as it is - they have to ask for the prices they are asking for, otherwise it would be impossible for them to turn any kind of profit. Nobody in the US/EU can offer those goods for the prices Denimio is offering them for or else they would go bankrupt in minutes.

 

It comes down to this. Denimio/Okayama/Rakuten are offering all of those brands at Japanese retail prices - prices that are in no way, shape, or form doable for 'outside' stores because of taxes etc. It's like this with many products that are a lot more affordable in the domestic market than they are internationally.

 

So when stores hear about shops undervaluing packages, selling items for cheaper than they are in the actual Japanese stores (e.g. TCB), it is understandable that regular stores who have to pay a lot of money to make the product available to their customers feel 'cheated' - simply because they cannot beat the system and KNOW that they are losing money because not everyone will spend the difference at their store just because of good service.

 

What you yourself do, is up to you. Denimio took the ball and ran with it, and if you want to support them and get the best value for your money possible, that's fine. But I for one (and I have bought from Japan as well if the product wasn't available to me otherwise!) think that it is perfectly reasonable for brick and mortar stores to be angry and cautious about this development, as am I, and I am just a consumer. A diversity of stores is a good thing, and while I don't think stores like Selfedge will necessarily be shutting down because of this, THEY are big enough to have a say with the brands themselves and might be able to protect even smaller stores that are dependent on their sales. I like the diversity we are having, and I would love for even more stores to be able to exist - and so I continue to watch this development with a happy (readily available cheap clothes) and a sad (a lot of pressure on small stores) eye.

Edited by Frost
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I'm a little confused why denimio became the boogeyman. Aren't there a bunch of stores that sell things at Japanese retail price without tax? And they're in English too and talk specifically about no tax for foreigners, which seems to be exactly what denimio is doing.

If I remember correctly, the wholesale price to foreigners is super high compared to domestic, or something like that. I really think it makes more sense for these companies to cut overseas retailers some slack (lower the wholesale price), because there are already a million things stacked against them, instead of forcing domestic retailers to refuse to take advantage of the world market.

My biggest problem with denimio is they seem super wack. I may have said this before, but if you read their copy it's like the know people love denim etc, and they write about it like they do, but you can tell it seems super forced.

Edited by itsbenhere
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Well I think if Denimio didn't offer to undervalue orders so that they can 99% of time go through customs without incurring taxes, then there wouldn't be as big a problem as there is currently

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Denimio only recently (December, I believe) started giving customers the option of filling out their own shipping form, the two times I ordered from them before that new service, I didn't ask and they didn't offer to "undervalue" my order to go through customs, neither of the two times was I charged taxes/fees/etc. from customs.  I heard of very few people who ordered from Denimio and got hit with customs charges, what that says to me is that it isn't necessarily on them that those orders weren't being met with additional taxes. 

Edited by VivaMarlon
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Sorry man :( but hey, at least you get something with all those taxes!

 

And it's not like that $800 thing really matters... I've never been hit with customs ever. No clue why. Almost afraid there's some huge bill waiting for me somewhere and they'll come barging in for me at any second!

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I think the problem people have with denimio is that they're the most visible of the Japanese retailers, again selling below even Japanese retail (no taxes), but specifically targeting foreign customers. The rakuten shops, for example, are much smaller on the one hand and don't advertise anywhere near as extensively on the other. It' one thing to offer a service, it's another to do it in such a way that can impinge on other peoples' business, especially in a large way. No other shops in Japan have that level of selection in my opinion, with that level of outreach outside of Japan. They obviously know what they're doing.

 

What seems problematic to me is the way they're gone about their business. Friendly competition is one thing, but something is wrong if you're alienating other people in your field and polarizing customers in the same way. From a consumer standpoint it may be beneficial, but the playing field is not level. Amazon and Walmart offer similarly large selection at unbeatable prices, and have wiped out many smaller retailers that can't compete. This seems kind of similar to me.

 

Also, just some speculation regarding their inventory. I highly doubt they have in stock what they've got listed on their website. It would be ridiculously expensive to stock all of that, not to mention the warehousing fees-- they're in Yokohama where land and storage facilities aren't exactly cheap. Rather, I would be willing to bet they're essentially middle men, ordering from the brand when an order comes in. It would minimize their risk, allow them to "stock" a huge product range and would also explain the sudden disappearance of products and the borrowed pictures. The domestic shipping system in Japan is pretty quick and could accommodate this if it's the model. Of course, this would be another way foreign sellers couldn't possibly compete due to the time and fees involved.

 

Lastly, it seems to me that the brands, like most Japanese companies, are extremely conscious of business relations. Often, more so than large profits, they want to work with stores that have similar values and that they can get along with in the long term. It seems to me that it would be shortsided on their part to partner with a company like denimio if it risks undercutting foreign growth/retailers, especially if those retailers are of a more similar ideological persuasion. Ultimately, for smaller or growing labels like Burgus Plus, TCB or Kojima Genes it may make sense to partner with Denimio, but I think established brands will likely shy away from them in the longer term.

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all i kno is i'm now lookin at purchas form denimio where previously i had never heard. so dis thred is another pwerful example of denimio world wide dominance. $ talks BS walks. IDGAF what the reason for the BAMs being high is. sort it out. I cant visit BAM anyhow so why pay $$ for mexican vacay stays. keep it honest.

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Fuck it he sell evisu that cant happen

 

 

Let's riot Edmond, we can finally agree on something.

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Just ask BiG directly.

 

Sure we can speculate, but another store owner/employee is not going to directly talk about another store in matters like this. It's not cool and doesn't come off as professional.

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Speaking of Denimio, I'm mad I rushed out earlier this year and bought a pair of JB0501 and recently came across TCB whose quality and price is much better. If there was no thread on TCB here, I would have never heard of them. Bought a one wash pair and exchanged for raw.

I needed a blue jean bad to replace a cheap tattered APC pair and needed something else to wear beside wearing my stealth Rogues. Can't wear black all the time.

I got the JB0501 hemmed and everything, opting for one wash. Was wearing them constantly but they have ridiculously wide legs to the point they're like bell bottoms. They're just too wide to the point I'll have to leave them to wear in the Fall with boots.

Anyway, decided to play the soaking/raw game and bought a TCB 60s pair. I'm probably the laziest when it comes to denim, hence my foray from APC to one wash only styles due to me not wanting to put any effort in my jeans and just half assing it altogether. Starting to think my JB0501 was a waste of money as I stopped wearing them and just wear my Rogues for now until my TCB comes in from Denimio.

Edited by mlwdp
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I don't think there is any ethical duty from the consumer here. Buy from whichever vendor creates value for you. Customer service vs price. If someone manages to do both, then there you go.

 

agreed. I think the term 'value' is subjective anyways. Without getting too embroiled with the politics of international business it makes me wonder whether or not certain B&M's opt for exclusivity with denim brands. This would certainly eliminate competition. But competition will always be fierce in a free market. If anything, Denimio and OD have given consumers the ability to try Japanese brands without the huge price tag attached. I don't know enough about Denimio's & OD's business dealings to start casting them in a bad light, so I won't make any comments about that. Plus, from an economic point of view, not many people have $300+ they can throw at a pair of Japanese denim. I've said this before but if B&M's want to survive in this economy then maybe exclusive collabs are the way to go. I know several B&M's have already done this so it certainly appeals to denim geeks that want something unique and original.

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I'm not sure why people are so hot and heavy for Denimio and OD.  My online transactions with Rakuten sellers has always been pretty easy.  I even managed to communicate to Klax-On I wanted them to punch a hole in my wallet for my wallet lanyard.

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Just ask BiG directly.

 

Sure we can speculate, but another store owner/employee is not going to directly talk about another store in matters like this. It's not cool and doesn't come off as professional.

my interest was not in the answer to the original question, but in pointing out that kiya didn't really answer the question after saying that he was going to; that fact combined with the warning that we not "point fingers" at BiG or SE (which wasn't even mentioned in the original question) gave me the impression that the response was more about self-promotion than providing the forum with unbiased quality information

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You come around to stir shit up when it doesn't even make sense to stir shit up. He's just saying that it's rare for JUST BiG or SE to be the only one "complaining" about companies like Denimio, they're not the only ones with skin in the game anymore. That's a fair point to make, and what information would he give that wouldn't be speaking for another company? Which like Niro said is unprofessional.

 

I also don't think Kiya needs any self-promotion, he has a thread on superfuture for christ's sake. I think everyone here knows of self edge and kiya.

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my interest was not in the answer to the original question, but in pointing out that kiya didn't really answer the question after saying that he was going to; that fact combined with the warning that we not "point fingers" at BiG or SE (which wasn't even mentioned in the original question) gave me the impression that the response was more about self-promotion than providing the forum with unbiased quality information

 

The idea that i'd be in this thread for self promotion is hilarious to me.  I'm here because it's fun, i still enjoy posting on forums.  

You don't think after 10 years and 5 stores i'd be able to hire somebody to post on forums for us for promotion?   That sounds terrible to me, hence why you still have to deal with me in all corners of the internet.  

Sometimes i think we could have more fans of the store if you got me off the internet.  (4)

Edited by kiya
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haha.  for the record.  I only asked about BiG because they carry every single one of those brands listed.  Im a luddite when it comes to knowing who carries what so in my feeble mind BiG was the only place to get those brands in the US.  But it def. wasnt to point fingers or stir up shit, I was just curious if it was a collective complaint or one big player doing the complaining (pun intended)

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I order from Denimio and OD because I don't have a BM store close that has the brands I want. When I lived in Seattle I would go to Blue Owl and Self Edge but there is a small selection of brands. If I want anything different I don't see the benefits of not ordering from a Japanese site; they have the same stuff plus more details (red tab and arcs) for a 1/3rd of the price.

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I order from Denimio and OD because I don't have a BM store close that has the brands I want. When I lived in Seattle I would go to Blue Owl and Self Edge but there is a small selection of brands. If I want anything different I don't see the benefits of not ordering from a Japanese site; they have the same stuff plus more details (red tab and arcs) for a 1/3rd of the price.

 

I agree that it is really hard to fault Denimio - they offer great prices for genuine items, with excellent customer service (in replying to emails, providing real-life measurements [because the website's ones aren't always the greatest], and accepting refunds if things don't work out).  With whom would we side if the roles were reversed (Japanese consumers complaining that artisanal American-made denim was cheaper to buy directly from the US than picking up at a Japanese brick & mortar store)?  Consequently, I don't envy these brick and mortar stores that are trying to compete in selling a foreign product in the cyber-connected world of today - that's a tenuous business plan.

 

Fortunately, I do think brick and mortar stores have their appeal.  I've been guilty of buying several collaboration pairs (SE, BO) over the years.  And my PBJ jacket from R&H was a pretty epic impulse buy.  Also, where else am I going to go for hemming, tapering, and crotch repair?  I also am hopeful that brick and mortar stores will begin to rise as denimheads' tastes change more towards American brands/denim.

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wow, been a lurker for almost a year and I never thought I would comment on a post.... I just got back from a few drinks, so maybe that's why I finally decided to come out of the bushes. As a person living in LA close to B&M shops that carry the denim I like, I don't typically go online to search for stuff unless I can't find it around me. After all, I'm older compared to the internet era crowd and like trying shit on. 

 

That said this whole thread is a bunch of crap IMO (or maybe being commented on mainly by older people like me who don't fucking get it). Being a repeat SE customer all the trash talk is such a turn off. Yes, Kiya's obviously not here for self promotion.... what he's here for is to stir shit up, perhaps in a bid to gather more support for his campaign against the inevitable doom of the brick and mortar retail model. Not too hard to do in a thread that obviously already has a bunch of B&M supporters (i'm guessing the majority of ya'll work for some of these shops, so I don't blame you, your bosses, partners and everyone around you are experiencing what's happening to physical retail everywhere, which ain't pretty). Anyone with a fucking pair of eyes and half a fucking brain will realize that what is happening with Denimio/OD will happen regardless of Denimio/OD - i.e., if it's not them, it will be others. It just makes fucking sense to buy from the damn source now that people can, and younger people are way more willing to take the risks that come with that. So B&M shops can try to take shops down one by one by trash talking them into oblivion, but what makes sense to do here is resort to the good ol' capitalism that we are used to seeing here in 'Murica - innovate and compete, dudes. If you can't beat them, join them - OK, that last idiom is not quite on point... but my point is: you won't beat them, because it's not them. It's where the whole world is going and is driven by demand, by the same dudes that if it were 2007 might have bought from you. Well, it's 20 fucking 16. So get your shit together and start doing good business to compete with the companies of the future around the world instead of wasting time complaining on stupid forums like 15 year olds.

 

I love the whole line of "we have to support each other and the B&M shops that made these brands great." Whoever buys that marketing shit is an irrational idiot.

 

I completely agree with you, Kiya

 

"Sometimes i think we could have more fans of the store if you got me off the internet. "

 

Your internet activity makes you and your store look like weak players dude. Like, I've always thought you're a bit "rough around the edges" but I guess I don't give a shit generally. 

 

Anyway, you fuckers need to stop being so butthurt about the inevitable. 

 

I'm done with my rant. Payce

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