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i wonder if the sizing issue is just them refusing to use vanity sizes? i don't know what it's like a few inches up, but while i mainly fit into 30" waist jeans, my actual waist is about 32.5. in the example below, a 41" waist would shrink to about 38" no? which is the actual waist size of someone who normally buys a 36 waist? so if you size from your actual waist measurements rather than your usual trouser size, it should work. in theory.

A person's waist is 36, so they follow the instructions to size up by 2" and they buy a size 38, which measures 41".

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You know I think that if you read every brand specific thread on here you'll find a good deal of sizing inconsitancy through out their various histories and as we all know STF is not always an exact science, no matter who the maker is.

I'm lucky in that I live in SF and have access to several places that sell LVC so I can always try on anything before I buy but when it comes to say Samurai or Warehouse, I'm making as educated a guess as I can and this is one of the main problems when comes to sizing - buying over the internet. You never know for sure.

The reason more pairs don't get returned is probably because there's that feeling that you can maybe shrink/stretch them enough to make them fit and then once that's tried it's too late.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth on sizing fwiw.

The issue I have with some LVC product is the 'cheaping out' on some of the other things, like buttons and belt loops etc. That's what I feel lets them down sometimes and is where they can suffer in comparison to the Japanese competition.

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Colgems, why do you feel compelled to neg people who simply disagree with you?

You're totally right re the sizing - altho I don't understand why people don't simply return them before washing if they're oversized - but quite a few people, including Roy Slaper, use Polycore because it's more practical, and can be sewn under more tension.

And Edwin Lee repros are great, but by no means perfect - the Lee Mftg pockets have parallel edges, when they should be slightly tapered, they have a different arcuate, and the patch is Antiqued, compared to the original pair of pants on which they're based, which used to be in the Lee archives. I think the fabric is fine, certainly good enough for me, but not very exciting. Items like the hardware, especially the rear of the buttons are great. But, guess what, the sizing is off, and inconsistent between models.

I do plan to interview Miles in the next few months, and try and find out why there are the renewed problems with sizing.

i negged TB's post because he characterizes it as whining and complaining, and if you read them, they're rather insulting. i don't see it that way at all, these are legitimate complaints because what have we seen out of LVC lately? higher prices and reduced quality that's what. anyone can say what they want but overall the quality is not what it was ten years ago. the denim is lighter, fades faster and the construction is not as good as it was. please keep in mind i am speaking generally and there are exceptions. but i'll put it this way, i love levi's i've been wearing them in one form or another since about 1971, but they let the quality slip badly on the regular range and the same same thing is happening with LVC and you get to pay about $200/pr for your trouble. i love the Levis heritage but they are not holding up their end to be in the repro business. i'll give two small examples i have a 554 1944 and the shore leave 1944 from around 2005. recently i bought a pair of 44's that were a very baggy fit i thought i had put on some tommy hilfigers by mistake. the point is how many different ways did a 501 fit in 1944? answer one--so they need to replicate that to justify the price. the second thing i'll bring up is: i own the LVC 1966 and really like them. they're great but i was given an original pair by a relative the same size, not much wear & i know these are approx 66-68 because the have the same back patch with the tiny 501xx over 501. but the fit is different, the red tab is different, it has a v-stitch and the denim looks nothing like the LVC model. it is very dark almost black and very hairy. so the LVC 66 is a good jean but comparing them it really isn't that good a copy---somebody didn't do their homework because really the only things the same are the lack of rivets/bar tack and the back patch which resembles an original (there is a difference) i am a good customer i bought my first pair of LVC in 1999 or so and have bought probably 3 dozen pairs over the years. is it complaining or whining when they're slipping and raising prices at the same time? won't we all as LVC fans be better off if we call them on it?

as far as lee/japan the arcs are wrong pre-44 but that is a levis copyright issue, i haven't noticed any antique patches on any raw pair, the fit does tend to be too big and i hate it, but they at least are sanforized so there's less guessing and the details are correct right down to the cotton thread. i would love to hear some lee owners tell what they have found incorrect on any japanese post 44 models because to me they are very close to the originals much closer than levis get, that said i have sold off all my lee repros and originals except my 1952 model. i like the look of levis better so i own and wear more levis than anything else.

Edited by colgems1966
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i wonder if the sizing issue is just them refusing to use vanity sizes? i don't know what it's like a few inches up, but while i mainly fit into 30" waist jeans, my actual waist is about 32.5. in the example below, a 41" waist would shrink to about 38" no? which is the actual waist size of someone who normally buys a 36 waist? so if you size from your actual waist measurements rather than your usual trouser size, it should work. in theory.

a 41" jean should shrink down to 39".

In LVC you should buy your actual waist size or 1" up, problem is the waist vs tag size is all over the place. To get the raw measurement that I need (between 38 and 39"), I'm buying a 36 or 38 depending on model. Not really an issue, because I know what I need, and know what to ask vendors. But from the plethora of sizing questions in this thread, it's obviously an issue for a lot of people. Standardization across the line would make things a lot easier, whether that be making the waist and tag size the same, or the waist size 1" bigger than tagged. Having the waist and tag size the same was the way it's been for the majority of the 501s history (and the type of sizing that the brown sticky tag is actually referencing).

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the most disturbing trend i've seen recently is cut, not waist or length. the last pair of 44's bought only a couple of months ago measured as they should in the waist and length i have well learned to ask in advance. so i figured i was ok, well i looked like i was wearing 560's or some other homeboy cut. i looked like a man wearing pants two sizes too big. the waist fit but the fly area and seat were very baggy and the thighs were huge, and that's what bothers me. a certain model should fit but one way, but i have observed a lot of variance in cut in the same model as well as materials. my early 37 501's are made from a completely different and better denim than the ones i have from 2010. these are the things i have a problem with.

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About the part giving back your jeans when unhappy. Have a look at this:

_58742380_homer_campbell_letter.jpg

A 1920 letter in the Levi's archive from miner Homer Campbell of Constellation, Arizona, describes how he wore his jeans every day for three years:

"Please find enclosed one pair of your overalls which I am sending you that the head of your fabric department may determine what is wrong. I purchased these from the Brayton Commercial Co of Wickenburg, Arizona, in the early part of 1917 and I have worn them every day except Sunday since that time and for some reason which I wish you would explain they have gone to pieces. I have worn nothing but Levi Strauss overalls for the past 30 years and this pair has not given me the service that I have got from some of your overalls in the past. I know that it is your aim to present a superior article on the market and consider it my duty to help you in any way I can. Please consider this and let me know if the fault is mine."

thx to Lando who posted a link to this article where I found the above:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17101768

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About the part giving back your jeans when unhappy. Have a look at this:

_58742380_homer_campbell_letter.jpg

thx to Lando who posted a link to this article where I found the above:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-17101768

so even in the 20s people were complaining about the falling quality of levis. dude probably posts here.

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I have yet to see a single post regarding Levi's durability issues :) . Notice the different meaning of quality back then and now. We are a bunch of pampered sisters

***then you haven't looked very hard as there are many posts on here about that very topic; both denim and hardware.
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lvc is a fashion brand... people dont buy them for durability, they buy them to look cool. if any of you really cared about durability, youd just get some wranglers.

levis knows this too... we know they read the forums, and they dont listen to a thing people say on here... so why would you think that the mistakes are anything but intentional? levis doesnt care about making the most exact repros, they care about having levis branded jeans that can sell for hundreds of dollars.

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well cheap i'm sure people buy them for lot's of reasons. for me personally i bought them because it is as close as you can get to the real deal from the old days. i grew up wearing selvage 501's, with chain-stitched cuffs etc...i was around when it all changed. so if you want those things today you can wear originals (cost prohibitive) or buy repros. it's not unreasonable to expect durability, as you said yourself you can get durability from a pair of $20 wranglers so why not expect the same or more from $200 lvc's?

as far as the mistakes i don't think they're intentional it's just laziness. but they're in the repro business so they should do better. if they were in the A2 jacket business it wouldn't fly because the people who buy those are savvy and it wouldn't pass, they'd get called on it. what i think is the case here is the majority of the people buying LVC have never owned or even seen originals and don't know any better and levi's knows this so they can cut corners. a 66 501 resembles one because they said so and you take their word for it.

i have nothing against them; i've bought many pairs but they're going the wrong way. IMO fit & quality has gotten worse not better with prices rising all the time. the last 47's i bought i was shocked at the shiny chrome buttons that rust easily, and i've previously mentioned the fit issues. people can do what they like but until it improves, if i need any i'll buy older used from ebay and get more for less.

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O rly. Please enlighten me

*** well for starters see smittybat's comments on this very page regarding the buckles. as i said you're not looking very hard probably because you don't want to find anything that conflicts with your point of view. this is the last i will say about it though, to quote my late father "when you argue with a fool, who's the fool"? Edited by colgems1966
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lvc is a fashion brand... people dont buy them for durability, they buy them to look cool. if any of you really cared about durability, youd just get some wranglers.

levis knows this too... we know they read the forums, and they dont listen to a thing people say on here... so why would you think that the mistakes are anything but intentional? levis doesnt care about making the most exact repros, they care about having levis branded jeans that can sell for hundreds of dollars.

Thanks for missing my point in it's entirety.

*** well for starters see smittybat's comments on this very page regarding the buckles. as i said you're not looking very hard probably because you don't want to find anything that conflicts with your point of view. this is the last i will say about it though, to quote my late father "when you argue with a fool, who's the fool"?

Well that's not a very convincing argument. Looking at the recent Cultizm contest (sadly so many dropouts), I'd say it's not too shabby regarding construction quality. To our little discussion, did it even reach the arguing phase? For starters, baseless assumptions and empty hot air sounds more like bickering. I'm still waiting for the "many posts" regarding durability issues of Levi's. And by the way, rusty buttons are freaking cool.

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i agree with cheap, lvc is a fashion brand first and foremost, they aren't really a serious repro company like the japanese, despite what the marketing would have you believe... obviously levi's has a very strong heritage and archive and they duly exploit that with lvc, but they also take some liberties in order to make certain stuff more wearable and relevant to current times. i've got the example of a OG tab twill 50's workshirt i scored recently, the exact original of the current tab twill repro lvc has re-issued this year, which i also happen to have picked up. at first glance the 2 shirts appear fairly identical, all the details and stitching at the right place but the cut of the lvc repro has been completely modernized, torso slimmed up, arms are much longer, pockets re-sized..etc etc the raw denim is probably the most accurate of the line yet obviously blatant inaccuracies occur which i am sure are intentional...it is kind of a bummer they take these liberties but unless you're willing to hunt down / pay up for the OGs its still the best we can get, so its kind of take it or leave it..

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...it is kind of a bummer they take these liberties but unless you're willing to hunt down / pay up for the OGs its still the best we can get, so its kind of take it or leave it..

And there's the rub. But you're right, hence I buy the the Lvc I like, usually nos repro's via ebay, models I've scrutinized for accuracy/sizing issues. But somehow i still have hope for lvc....

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I have yet to see a single post regarding Levi's durability issues :) . Notice the different meaning of quality back then and now. We are a bunch of pampered sisters

Quality of a product by definition means that the products coming from the production line are homogeneous. What I've understood by reading the last pages is that in case of LVC they're not. :)

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i have hope too dr. levi's has the best possible starting point of any bluejeans maker. they have a unique and remarkable heritage and a legal lock on many desirable features (levis name, arcuate, red tab etc..) and a rich and broad history to draw from. right or wrong that's why i personally don't own any japanese or premium u.s. brands---i'm a lineage freak. if it didn't exist as a brand in vintage days i pass no matter how good it is. i own levis, lee and blue bell wrangler although i would be interested in any vintage brand like foremost, powrhouse etc..anyway i kick up a duststorm now and again because i want them to address these issues. if they won't or can't give LVC the attention it deserves i would rather see the brand licensced out like lee has done esp since they're no longer actually made by levis anyway.

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right or wrong that's why i personally don't own any japanese or premium u.s. brands---i'm a lineage freak. if it didn't exist as a brand in vintage days i pass no matter how good it is.

I'm close to you in that point. Anyway, LVC is definitely a premium brand (like woolrich, barbour, red wing, just to name a few), at least in europe. And yeah, in the end it's all about fashion. Vintage workwear is still one of the strongest fashion impulses.

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perspective is a funny thing. growing up no one thought of red wing, levis, woolrich or any of the other classic brands as a luxury. it was all available at the local stores for moderate prices and it was just something you wore. my dad wore all that stuff in the 50's & 60's & 70's and he knew nothing of fashion. i remember my mother fussing at him when they were going out and trying to help him get presentable (people dressed up back then ) but when i think of him around the house he was always in rw 875's or fryes, levis and a flannel shirt. the generation he was born to you could take that quality for granted, i know he didn't think about it. unfortunately today you can't take quality for granted if you went in a store and bought your clothing in a haphazard fashion for functional purposes like he did god only knows how you'd look. and that's why i buy what i do; i guess i am frustrated that those options are not available to me at the corner store like they were for my dad. so i seek it out making an effort to find similar quality and classic good looks, i don't care at all for fashion. in fact i kind of wish some of these trends had never hit and driven vintage clothing prices so high because it was a lot cheaper just 10yrs ago.

Edited by colgems1966
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i have hope too dr. levi's has the best possible starting point of any bluejeans maker. they have a unique and remarkable heritage and a legal lock on many desirable features (levis name, arcuate, red tab etc..) and a rich and broad history to draw from. right or wrong that's why i personally don't own any japanese or premium u.s. brands---i'm a lineage freak. if it didn't exist as a brand in vintage days i pass no matter how good it is. i own levis, lee and blue bell wrangler although i would be interested in any vintage brand like foremost, powrhouse etc..anyway i kick up a duststorm now and again because i want them to address these issues. if they won't or can't give LVC the attention it deserves i would rather see the brand licensced out like lee has done esp since they're no longer actually made by levis anyway.

Look, we would all like Lvc to be a smaller, but more focussed outfit - just look at 'rising sun' - but they're not. And that isn't going to change anytime soon.

That's why I went for a pair of the older sugarcanes, truer in my mind to a '47 than the lvc '47 ever has been.

Just be gratefull (like i am) that you were lucky enough to wear those older originals in the first place :)

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Look, we would all like Lvc to be a smaller, but more focussed outfit - just look at 'rising sun' - but they're not. And that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Correct. Any complaint, constructive criticism, or ideas any of us may voice in regard to LVC, has the same amount of power as a fart in a wind storm. Levis and LVC are going to do what they want, regardless of a what a portion of their customers would like them to do. And the only way for the historically minded customer to effect any change is to not buy their product, and write Levis explaining that you would like to purchase their products and why you are choosing not to.

And any mistakes being made by LVC aren't intentional, they're made because you have fashion people running a historical brand. And when I say mistakes, I mean things like incorrect pocket shape ('22s), missing stitching ('66s), or a leather patch that's smaller than it should be ('15, '22), etc. Those are mistakes made because of a lack of attention to detail. Altering cut and fit aren't mistakes, they're obvious and intentional deviation from the original to make it fit into current fashion trends. May sell product, but IMO it dilutes and undermines LVC. I'd rather see LVC focus on history and a brand like Made & Crafted put a new cut and fit on heritage.

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