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That int'l pricing is crap. 

Who gets our extra $? PBJ or the shop that sells internationally?

PBJ doesn't make anything I would have to have regardless of price. They do make some things I would have liked to try, but not with blanket mark-up that has nothing to do with materials and production.

I'm actually surprised the stores didn't just drop PBJ. How does a store explain it to a loyal customer? OD needs loyal customers more than they need suppliers that never keep up with demand.

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The mission of the Western dealers completed successfully,now all the layers of customers are equal-the same payment (at the top rate).There is a chance for obscure Japanese and other manufacturers,but they will also gradually raise prices,forced,IMHO.Time will judge.

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Well PBJ just shot themselves in the foot IMO.

Roy RS00 $285 - PBJ XX03 new price: $283 (although most of the other PBJ jean styles will now be $310+).

I know which one I'm buying next.

Do love the colour of the Type II Double Natural Indigo Jacket but $1073 is la la land.

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^ I agree, the Ai dyed double indigo Type II, even @ $745!!, was almost irresistible but $1000+? As beautiful as it is, I just can't convince myself (I think). Just checked Okayama website and the price has not yet changed. I've got an email in to them, we'll see.

Edited by lance

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21 hours ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

I would be really interested if this price adjustment only affects OD and Denimio as they are strongly targeted at the worldwide market and if the “normal” Japanese shops just continue like they did before.

 

AFAIK, this is the case; we have an article coming out on Heddels about it soon, but basically shops have been getting tired of Denimio and OD undercutting them.

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PBJ can do whatever they want but they don't take into consideration the following:

Post-Brexit the UK pounds sterling (£) devalued by around 15 to 20% against the US dollar ($) and other currencies which add significantly to the cost of importing from the US or Japan.

We pay import duties on anything purchased from outside of the Eurozone - VAT/duties and handling charges add around 30% to the cost + we also have to pay for shipping. Yes, there are ways of avoiding some of these costs but they are not guaranteed. We also don't have the rights to return the item for the refund if purchasing outside of the EU or the opportunity to go and try the item on in a bricks and mortar store, we take A LOT of risk when buying from overseas - quite often losing money when that garment doesn't work out.

The stores that have been complaining to PBJ about being undercut- what evidence do they have? Why don't they trim their profit margins slightly and be competitive? This looks like price fixing and not capitalism. If the difference in price between buying in the UK or buying from the overseas was marginal (10 to 15%) I'd be very happy to buy from a UK store. But instead they think whacking prices up 35 to 40% is the solution. It's just plain dumb business practice. There's plenty of choice out there and I'll be voting with my wallet. I do feel bad for Melv, he's a good guy.

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1 hour ago, cool_hand said:

There's plenty of choice out there and I'll be voting with my wallet. 

That is exactly what I meant with my comment to buy somewhere else.

Of course it's a bad solution for OD or Denimio but I think it's hard to find a way where everyone benefits: the shops in Japan, the shops worldwide and also us, the customers.

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It's artificial price fixing whatever way you look at it. If stores outside of Japan don't like it then drop the brand. Okayama's business will suffer a drop in sales, there's no doubt. Is that fair on Merv?

So what happens with UK brands that sell locally in Japan if when inevitably they retail at a higher price in Japan? Are the Japanese stores complaining to the UK brand and asking them to raise the prices in the UK to compensate? I doubt it. It's hypocrisy.

Edited by cool_hand
typo

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2 hours ago, cool_hand said:

If the difference in price between buying in the UK or buying from the overseas was marginal (10 to 15%) I'd be very happy to buy from a UK store. But instead they think whacking prices up 35 to 40% is the solution.

Same. In some places it's closer to 70%! I've just ordered a pair of Full Count 1108 from Denimio to keep on ice, as there's no way I'm paying £279 for them in a shop in London. I get that shops have wages and rent to pay, but I resent how some of them are now acting like gatekeepers for certain brands.

Maybe OD and Denimio are undercutting physical stores but the way I see it is this: if a pair of jeans are over £250, I just don't buy them. So the only people missing out are PBJ, or Full Count, or whoever.

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1 hour ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

That is exactly what I meant with my comment to buy somewhere else.

Of course it's a bad solution for OD or Denimio but I think it's hard to find a way where everyone benefits: the shops in Japan, the shops worldwide and also us, the customers.

Stuff like this happens, and so I can understand the desire all the way around. Sort of like Trump wanting to renegotiate trade agreements to create equal opportunity.

Here is what I don't get about PBJ/OD/Denimio. The price increase  charged by OD and Denimio is artificial, and creates no value for the end user. It also creates no value for OD or Denimio, except a higher profit margin when they sell PBJ internationally. In my eyes, the fact that OD and Denimio are unwilling to stand up for their global customers, damages my willingness to purchase any brand from them. OD/Denimio should also not be punished by PBJ for pulling from an international market, I'm sure there are costs associated with that, and because of their market, they probably do more volume. That loss of volume is initially going to hurt OD, Denimio, AND PBJ. Eventually, that will increase the cost of PBJ to the "local" shops that complained to begin with.

PBJ should have just pulled their stock from OD and Denimio, or OD and Denimio should have stopped carrying PBJ.

Since I brought up Trump and America. His renegotiation does create value for the end user, the country, and the job market.

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Interesting you mention the RMC model, I wonder if we are going to see PBJ stores popping up outside of Japan like we did (temporarily) in NY and have in London?

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I don't think you necessarily need PBJ shops outside Japan, just authorised distributors/retailers who deal directly with them or their agents and have agreements over price. 

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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I just couldn't get into PBJ at all.  Denimio even tried to get me interested in a pair of left hand twill through a size suggestion but I didn't like it and went to Sugar Cane instead. No disrespect to anyone else here who is a fan of the brand.

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I doubt that any loss of sales associated with the OD price increases would really hurt PBJ. They already can't make enough to meet demand, so you'd think they'd be relieved to have less to deal with.

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3 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

I doubt that any loss of sales associated with the OD price increases would really hurt PBJ. They already can't make enough to meet demand, so you'd think they'd be relieved to have less to deal with.

 
 

Loss of sales will hurt Okayama Denim though.

Evidence please?

Edited by cool_hand
typo

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Interesting discussion here and a very "creative" approach by PBJ - an approach that possibly only "works" for marginal brands.

In the past, big international brands have exploited this situation with higher international prices, premium product marketing strategies and own-retail networks. Also, they were not scared or bothered about being sidelined by small-scale, private "import schemes".

I guess for brands like FC or PBJ things are different because their main market is domestic and own-retail. For the international market they have partnered with smaller retailers which they have decided to listen to. Today, people ordering directly from Japan are likely a real concern for these small shops.

I get the difference in domestic price and international prices - 30-40% makes perfect sense for imports from Japan to Europe or US. The difference in VAT alone is a good 10% for Europe. Add custom duties, shipping cost, operational expenses and different mark-ups and you're there.

I understand why nobody wants to pay 30-40% on top, but I support local business whenever the products are available. It's only when I hear complaints about Japan retail prices being too high that I wonder if the problem is actually something completely different...

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First OT: I can't believe in the naivete in the thinking that Trump's protectionism will benefit anyone in the end. Most US industry rely on international market, domestic market alone just won't cut it. He is trying to force feed US.products on international market and at the same time block international competition with heavy taxes/customs charges. Where's the fairness in that? Eventually others will follow suit and start blocking US products locally. And US industry suffers. Way to go!

But back to PBJ and OD. It is obvious that PBJ is the biggest brand at OD and thus has a major voice and OD just can't lose PBJ at the moment, otherwise they would be a much smaller business very soon. It may be that after a while they have other brands and they may even drop PBJ but that is not possible right now. Of course this is bad for OD business as it relies on intarnational customers, I doubt that they have any role in japanese market. But they have no choice. I doubt that Denimio will follow suit and raise prices at the same rate as they have much broader representation of brands.

If the final cost, including shipping, taxes, customs, etc, of PBJ (or any other brand) seems too high, you can proxy. Many proxies allow you to devalue the product and thus you can lower the local customs and tax charges at least. Of course this is much higher than current PBJ prices but will be lower than the alternative.

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41 minutes ago, mrman said:

First OT: I can't believe in the naivete in the thinking that Trump's protectionism will benefit anyone in the end. Most US industry rely on international market, domestic market alone just won't cut it. He is trying to force feed US.products on international market and at the same time block international competition with heavy taxes/customs charges. Where's the fairness in that? Eventually others will follow suit and start blocking US products locally. And US industry suffers. Way to go!

Nobody knows the end result. The publicized intent of each was what I am commenting on.

One is based upon maintaining, and creating employment. Will it save jobs?

The other is being done to satisfy retailers. If what Maynard says about PBJ  never being stock anyways, then no help. Just bad publicity.

I asked before. Where does the increased int'l sales price go? Who gets it? I think OD and Denimio, otherwise OD would not offer 3x points.

This is too bad for OD and Denimio, their more effiecent business model is being punished, rather than celebrated.

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And it's 8% in Japan - makes a difference of 11-12%

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I'm a loyal OD customer and think it sucks that they have to raise their PBJ prices but at the same time I'm glad they are not dropping the brand.  I own several PBJ item and the look, feel and quality is great in my opinion.  For me with all things equal (online pricing being the same between UK shops, NYC shops, Seattle shops, etc.) the triple points that OD will offer will make a difference.

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Well, this was bound to happen and I'm surprised the international 'standardization' didn't happen earlier.

For many of the niche brands, having all the retailers that sell to the international market agree on a fixed price seems to be the way forward. 

 

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Untill someone in some country with specific laws calls it "price fixing" or Japan enters into a FTA with certain countries...

In fact, HK should have the lowest import duties, low transport costs and no VAT - I'm curious to see if certain HK stores will sell at the new international prices or continue to sell of Japan prices.

At the end of the day, I like to think that our beloved japan denims are a luxury commodity and highly artisanal - the unfortunate, but real existence of duties, shipping and VAT should give additional support for local denim artists and brands.

Edited by Foxy2

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34 minutes ago, anklspr said:

PBJ can't expect retailers to dedicate sales staff, maintain web stores & sizing charts, and field sizing and material questions (phone, online, and in person) knowing that they have two retailers undercutting the rest. What they're said to be doing is totally reasonable.:)

I need a XX-007 in a 31 waist. No hemming. Same as the other 3 pairs I bought before anywhere in London stocked them.

Don't need a gatekeeper to tell me what I'm buying for an extra £100  :-)

Edited by TheIntelligentHoodwinker

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13 minutes ago, anklspr said:

Were they stocked in London? Or did you buy them from OD or Denimio? I suspect that PBJ's interests expand beyond how cheaply you can buy their jeans over the internet.  

Well, maybe they will if everyone else adopts a similar view. They're no longer that unique a company, and there's something very King Cnut'y about preventing people from buying their products as cheaply as possible in this day and age. Struggling to think of any cheap/mid price consumer goods producers that that's worked for...

Edit - they were bought in Blue in Green, back when the £/$ exchange rate meant they were relatively affordable.

Edited by TheIntelligentHoodwinker

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1 hour ago, anklspr said:

What's nice about this all in large part is the service that retailers give, and that costs money. 

Last thing anyone needs are more Walmarts and people bitching for service while demanding it at 99 cents. 

I know, I know. You're totally right, but when a wardrobe staple suddenly becomes inaccessible it's frustrating. We all buy brands like Full Count and PBJ because they do things differently and we want to support the small guy. But if you have to support the small guy by supporting another small guy who wants their cut... the cost adds up and it becomes unjustifiable for what, at the end of the day, is a pair of jeans and will be likely be worn into the ground and used for D.I.Y. within 2 years.

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7 hours ago, anklspr said:

What's nice about this all in large part is the service that retailers give, and that costs money. 

Last thing anyone needs are more Walmarts and people bitching for service while demanding it at 99 cen

In the end this doesn't work. If a shop is willing to take a smaller profit margin, but move volume, that is the shop owners choice. PBJ does not pay the staff or the operating costs.

By your reasoning, everything should be the same price everywhere.

What happens when a customer sizes wrong and puts the item up for sale online? Is PBJ or group of shop owners going to try to dictate the price? If something sits in my closet for 12 months, then online for two. Then I'm willing to sell it for less.

Heck, is PBJ going to dictate that a retailer can't sell for MORE than anybody else? By your rationale they should. If you say no to this please explain why.

It is too bad that PBJ is taking such a short sighted approach. As much as I'd rather be looking at evo pics, this philosophy is now interwoven into everything PBJ produces. In fact, they brought it to the forefront of their brand.

Alas, with enough time and washes, this too will fade...

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forgive me for stating the obvious but I believe PBJ is trying to control the value of their goods, and by default, OD & Denimio is devaluing their brand by undercutting non-Japanese retailers. I don't agree with the new pricing structure and think it will do more harm than good but I think they're trying to do what Iron Heart is doing. I know I won't be buying anymore of their clothing, but that's because if i'm going to spend that kind of coin i'd rather do it with IH who have more consistent sizing and more variety.

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forgive me for stating the obvious but I believe PBJ is trying to control the value of their goods, and by default, OD & Denimio is devaluing their brand by undercutting non-Japanese retailers. I don't agree with the new pricing structure and think it will do more harm than good but I think they're trying to do what Iron Heart is doing. I know I won't be buying anymore of their clothing, but that's because if i'm going to spend that kind of coin i'd rather do it with IH who have more consistent sizing and more variety.

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On 3/7/2017 at 1:07 PM, cool_hand said:

PBJ can do whatever they want but they don't take into consideration the following:

Post-Brexit the UK pounds sterling (£) devalued by around 15 to 20% against the US dollar ($) and other currencies which add significantly to the cost of importing from the US or Japan.

We pay import duties on anything purchased from outside of the Eurozone - VAT/duties and handling charges add around 30% to the cost + we also have to pay for shipping. Yes, there are ways of avoiding some of these costs but they are not guaranteed. We also don't have the rights to return the item for the refund if purchasing outside of the EU or the opportunity to go and try the item on in a bricks and mortar store, we take A LOT of risk when buying from overseas - quite often losing money when that garment doesn't work out.

The stores that have been complaining to PBJ about being undercut- what evidence do they have? Why don't they trim their profit margins slightly and be competitive? This looks like price fixing and not capitalism. If the difference in price between buying in the UK or buying from the overseas was marginal (10 to 15%) I'd be very happy to buy from a UK store. But instead they think whacking prices up 35 to 40% is the solution. It's just plain dumb business practice. There's plenty of choice out there and I'll be voting with my wallet. I do feel bad for Melv, he's a good guy.

I have stayed out of this debate because this development was as much as a surprise to me as it was to anyone else. I for one have never made any protests to PBJ over OD and its price structure. Objectively, I can see many sides of the arguments that have been eloquently posited here but see a contradiction in your post.

You admit that the cost of importing runs at around 30% but then expect the price difference between Japanese retail and UK retail to be 10-15 %  which implies we need to absorb to cost of importing and work on much lower margins than the likes of OD. 

Import costs are just one of the aspects. Operating a store with staff in Central London is punishingly expensive. Business rates, just one example, are already high and are set to double from April. Few countries have a higher VAT rate than the UK so 20% of any sale in the EU goes to the taxman.  I would never "whack" up prices but faced with a depreciating currency and rising costs have had to implement some to protect the viability of the store.

I recently heard a pro-Brexit government minister tell retailers they need to absorb these higher costs and not pass them on to their customers. I have written to him and offered him a day's work experience at the store in Windmill Street so he can look at the books and see how fucking hard it is to run an independent store in London selling seriously good shit in the current climate. 

Edited by Danny @ Rivet & Hide

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