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1 hour ago, Orientalq said:

As I said in my conversation with @jasonlao I have enough for whatever the right price is. I'm not broke, I'm just more price sensitive. It's like that for any hobby. Someone people think spending 2k on a jacket is acceptable, some people don't. I happen to think J1A at 2k is pushing it when it has sold for less before. 

 

I have told E and he always replies with "you're not in the industry" which means nothing to me. It's clear he has a been on the hype craze especially with his love affair with hypebeast. Hence why I talked to people who are in the industry close to ACR who agree that price hikes are more marketing than logistics.  

I'm not the first but I won't be the last either. So what, because someone has complained about the business model months, or even years, back means that you can't talk about the same topic again? "Stop giving your lazy critique of capitalism, Marx did it before! Read the room!" Also with the news of an infamously skilled replica manufacturer taking on ACR you don't think it's fair to put that into context of pricing? 

In response to "lazy critique" I really don't see how my rhetoric or its contents are lazy or half-assed. Please elaborate. I also haven't projected any "sense of superiority" over any of the members on this forum. I haven't claimed to have had the "superior take" in any of this. In fact I have made it clear that my viewpoint is more rare especially in an enthusiast space. Dissent is fair game. I'll take as many neg reps as it takes to keep the ongoing topic of price, especially if there is a contextual reason to do so.

I seriously don't get the "shut up" attitude some have here. If someone has a viewpoint I disagree with, I would start a discussion, not shut him up.

So your end game is to keep the topic of price on-going? 
 

You came in hot, you gotta expect some heat back? I’m not concerned with you “shutting up”, I’d just personally prefer to read or discuss stuff that’s pushing the conversation forward and exploring pricing / purchase behaviour / economics / emotional investment with a fresh perspective. Repeating stuff that’s been said before - which I feel like you’re doing - is a bit boring to read (IMO), and misses the context of the ongoing conversation about pricing in the thread. Pricing chat will always be relevant, but repetition of the same stuff (whatever it’s focused on), with a “I’ve cracked another man’s business strategy for him” attitude is just a bit... meh. 

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40 minutes ago, Orientalq said:

Last I read I was the only one talking specifically about ACR pricing model AND giving possible solutions. If you think this thread is all roses go to the first page of the thread and you'll find complaints about exclusivity and pricing. This is a systemic problem and it won't go away because you're tired of hearing about it. Sorry you don't get your monopoly on this thread.

And yet somehow this so called problem has led to 25 years of successful r/d, product releases, and collaboration with industry heavyweights smh

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1 hour ago, markdjr said:

If you want to start a discussion, start your own thread, it's a discussion that has gone on for a long time regarding luxury brands in general, not just ACR, feel free to continue the discussion on your own thread.  This thread is over 10 years old and has been sustained by people who passionately support the brand, not question and complain about it.

As the person who started this thread, I’m fine with dissenting opinions. Blind “passionate support” just shows a lack of capacity for critical thought. The ideas @Orientalq is talking about are certainly not new or unique to ACR, but they are certainly relevant and belong here. 

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34 minutes ago, mikon_nikon said:

You came in hot, you gotta expect some heat back? 

I came in with heat in the form of discussion. In return you're telling me my points are recycled when all of the points you mentioned: economics, consumer behavior, pricing exploration, supply exploration have all been points I have discussed and used to back arguments. I implore you to search for anybody suggesting a stock increase AND price decrease in this topic. You won't. It's new and relevant. Whether scaling is really possible or not is something worth discussing rather than your put down post. 

Many of the old points I brought forward were because others like Brainerd wanted context so I did some searching in the past. 

Old points being old do not make it any less relevant. Yes, you might have price-complaint fatigue, but don't you think other people might have price-inflation fatigue too? It's not all about you. There are newcomers here who haven't followed the brand that closely that are culture shocked by the pricing. If you get tired of reading, stop and move to the next post. I don't know how else to put it. 

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48 minutes ago, brainerd666 said:

And yet somehow this so called problem has led to 25 years of successful r/d, product releases, and collaboration with industry heavyweights smh

Success does not mean optimization is not worth pursuing. Toyota is always searching for ways to make their process more efficient. They do this by encouraging transparency and honesty within the company. I'm not saying Acronym isn't improving but there is a (unpopular) sentiment here that prices have gone up while the products have stayed the same, more or less. I believe its precisely because of Errolson's post-hype hubris that pricing will sour Acronym's future.

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I felt it's not E's problem making clothing with low stock and high price. This is just most fashion brand do. That do making people think those brand and jacket more cool. Imagine E start his brand with a j1a with enough stock all the time and 400 usd price tag. He kinda have to have to make those jacket unreachable for most people in order to keep it as one of the top brand. 

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52 minutes ago, Hergert said:

I felt it's not E's problem making clothing with low stock and high price. This is just most fashion brand do. That do making people think those brand and jacket more cool. Imagine E start his brand with a j1a with enough stock all the time and 400 usd price tag. He kinda have to have to make those jacket unreachable for most people in order to keep it as one of the top brand. 

But LV, Rolex spends millions on advertising. Is there any transparency of where ACR R&D is going?

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18 minutes ago, Orientalq said:

But LV, Rolex spends millions on advertising. Is there any transparency of where ACR R&D is going?

All into the ARG, so many different people collabing here. Someone has to pay /s

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1 minute ago, SlackJackflack said:

All into the ARG, so many different people collabing here. Someone has to pay /s

ASUS got that taiwan money lol

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Hello!
I am thinking about buying a J47-GT from the SS20 season as a hardshell for a my J74-PX.
As both jackets have the auxzip feature I do know that they are generally combinable but does this also apply to the Fast Hoodǽ of the J47-GT with the fasteners of the J74-PX?
I was not able to find any info/pics on the net/thread. The Fast Hoodǽ looks in general really "small". Are there any experiences with hardshell incl. Fast Hoodǽ and a hooded liner?

Thanks for any help!

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Can we rehash pricing for the nth time after the FW drop discussion? Yall drowning out the product talk and not saying anything fresh. Buy the rep if you don't want to pay for the real deal. If it's good enough for you, who the fuck cares?

Has Acronym used the PU fabric in the past? Do you have to brush it to keep the nap? Site says:

Quote

To regain the halo (fluffiness) of the yarn, that is partially lost when the yarn is knit, HG1-PU is brushed by hand upon completion.

 

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10 hours ago, Orientalq said:

Last I read I was the only one talking specifically about ACR pricing model AND giving possible solutions. 

Solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.  Maybe I'm wrong and ACR will hire you as a consultant to help them improve their struggling business, but I doubt it. 

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9 hours ago, Westbrook said:

As the person who started this thread, I’m fine with dissenting opinions. Blind “passionate support” just shows a lack of capacity for critical thought. The ideas @Orientalq is talking about are certainly not new or unique to ACR, but they are certainly relevant and belong here. 

You're thread so you're the boss, but I did not say or imply "blind" passionate support.  On the contrary I think a majority of the people who have followed and contributed to this thread for a long time have done so with eyes wide open and with a lot of critical thought regarding the details that go in to the garments.  Whether someone deems those details valuable enough to justify the price is irrelevant, the price is the price. 

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58 minutes ago, markdjr said:

Solutions for a problem that doesn't exist. 

Yes, prices from 660 -> 1550 is not a problem at all. 

53 minutes ago, markdjr said:

Whether someone deems those details valuable enough to justify the price is irrelevant, the price is the price. 

??? Why are you acting like price doesn't matter? If ACR price hikes to 3k tomorrow you won't say anything? 

Edited by Orientalq

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13 minutes ago, Orientalq said:

Yes, prices from 660 -> 1550 is not a problem at all. 

??? Why are you acting like price doesn't matter? If ACR price hikes to 3k tomorrow you won't say anything? 

I am acting like price doesn't matter because it doesn't.  You or me getting on the internet and complaining about pricing is not going to change the luxury goods market.  I want Porsches to cost $40,000 and Bugatti's to cost $100,000, but that isn't going to happen.  I want there to be an infinite supply of Supreme x LV at a price point the everyperson can afford.  I want J1A to cost $700 not the very reasonable price of $1400 you have suggested.  

What I really want though, is for ACRNM to continue to do whatever the fuck they want and can get away with.  If people are willing to pay $3,000 for a shell, then they should charge $3,000 for a shell.  It is a brand that I like and I want them to have success by whatever measure they determine.  I don't care how many units of a particular item you think they should produce, I want them to be happy and creative and do what they have done for a very long time that has been working very well for them.

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18 minutes ago, markdjr said:

I am acting like price doesn't matter because it doesn't.  You or me getting on the internet and complaining about pricing is not going to change the luxury goods market.  I want Porsches to cost $40,000 and Bugatti's to cost $100,000, but that isn't going to happen.

What I really want though, is for ACRNM to continue to do whatever the fuck they want and can get away with.  If people are willing to pay $3,000 for a shell, then they should charge $3,000 for a shell.  It is a brand that I like and I want them to have success by whatever measure they determine.  I don't care how many units of a particular item you think they should produce, I want them to be happy and creative and do what they have done for a very long time that has been working very well for them.

1) Porsches can't cost 40,000 because the cost of manufacturing is too close to that number. Same goes for Bugatti's. You can't say the same for ACR. Even with generous estimations, the J1A costs no more than 800 to produce. A 1600 pricetag is still a huge margin. 

2) We all claim ACR is this luxury brand that can't be swayed, and at the same time, say that "Oh ACR is a small team of people with a niche market". You can't have it both ways. Either ACR caters to the niche market by listening to it's already low number of customers or it's this luxury brand giant that is immovable. Which is it? Especially, as some have pointed out, some of the ACR team browse this thread. Or is post-hype ACR too snobby to care about customers anymore?

3) Getting more profit out of the J1A by lowering prices and increasing stock won't stop them from making what they want to make, which are the new experimental pieces. In fact, more profit will actually add to their R&D budget or euro wages tm (or E's pocket). 

4) J1L wants a word about your 3k shell thesis.

Edited by Orientalq

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Okay, I went from understanding your side, to not sure what exactly it is that you want, to just being outright confused. Could you distill your point, for everyone's sake? A TL;DR would be super (Problem -> Evidence -> Proposed Solution -> Execution).

EDIT: Actually, don't. 

At end of the day, it is his 1. brand, 2. his business, and 3. has the right to run it however which way he wants. If the low volume, high margin works best for him and his beliefs, then you can't really argue with it. 

Again, it sounds crass, but if you want a medium volume, medium margin ACR-esque brand, then by all means, it is there for you or someone else to do. Asking ACR to do that is to ask them to change their biz model fundamentally. 

From a marketing perspective, you just aren't who they're speaking to ATM. (I've come to terms with this, I haven't bought anything since marriage. Shit is just that way.)

To be fair, that doesn't mean you can't like the brand or critique its prices either. But asking them to apply it as if you know better than them is a reach. To keep forcing your point is borderline selfish.

I get you though. It's quarantine, nobody to talk to. It isn't like we've got a fantasy techwear brand speculation thread. If the intention of your railroading is to change the brand so badly, best just vote with your wallet. That's how a capitalist market works.

I go here to mull about whether we really need 4br place or a jacket. I just wanna see fit pics.

Edited by WillKhitie

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you like it, buy it

don't like the price, don't buy it

personally i'd rather pay a premium for product scarcity so i don't walk out on the street and see clones everywhere (but that's me, and that's why i'm still biting even though the pricing hurts. 

when it gets too expensive for me you'll see me silently disappear from this forum

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25 minutes ago, AvantSol said:

@skycrawler thoughts? Does it have any acr typical features(aux zip etc)?

Curious about this as well. Didn’t see any acrnm features on the product photos. 

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1 hour ago, WillKhitie said:

Okay, I went from understanding your side, to not sure what exactly it is that you want, to just being outright confused. Could you distill your point, for everyone's sake? A TL;DR would be super (Problem -> Evidence -> Proposed Solution -> Execution Hypothesis, 1-2 sentences each please).

Problem: Acronym prices are hard to justify especially with past prices and stock is too low. Buying ACR at current price points is effectively succumbing to a hype tax (the implications of which are the incentivizing of poor pricing practices).

Evidence:

1): J48-SS in 2015: 666.73 EUR. J48-SS in 2020: 1512 EUR. (5 years, 800+ EUR difference, 126% price increase despite no R&D)

2): J27-GT was once 655 EUR. Today it is 1736 EUR. (1000+ EUR diff., 160% price increase despite little R&D)

3): A reputable replica manufacturer who did Stone Island Shadow Project with near retail accuracy (aka has a history with repping complex designs) claims to be able to make the J1A-GTPK at 300-500 USD. This news was enough to warrant a personal message from Errolson to the said manufacturer.

4): At current price points even a J1-variant is not selling out: J1L available in multiple sizes across many retailers. 

5): J1A consistently sells out because of low stock. Source: told by someone in the industry who is a friend of Umites, a designer at Acronym. 

6): Low stock theory is confirmed because of resale value on J1A variants priced at 2k+. It suggests stock was determined at a level where price is over 2k, meaning if more stock were produced the resale value would be lower. 

Proposed Solutions, Execution:

1) Lower prices on rereleases and do more of them. i.e. Rerelease J1A-GT 2.2 at 1500-1600 USD and at more stock, enough to alleviate arbitrage of resale. This applies for all pieces where R&D has been effectively paid for. Heritage is important to any brand, making more J1A won't kill the brand, it'll reinforce it. 

2) Use profit from J1A to fund R&D, pay workers more, scale more, or start other projects. This would allow for more flexibility in experimental pieces. Allocation for seasonal videos (who doesn't miss these.) This also favors enthusiasts as experimental pieces (more expensive and scarce) will allow them to feel the same luxury feeling they always had with ACR. 

Pitfalls, Follies:

1) It is possible that because items like the J1A are so complex to manufacture that there is a diminishing return on investment in regards to scaling. While this may be true, it does not change the fact that ACR has been sold for less before and still managed to stay in business. It also doesn't help that replica manufacturers, who in the past have hilariously failed, can now replicate the most complicated of garments. If they can (not proven yet) potentially mass produce ACR at a lower price, this is a nightmare scenario for ACR if they indeed have logistics obstacles. 

2) The argument that Luxury goods like ACR do not need to sell more to maximize profit is not bulletproof. It is hard to say because, for one, ACR has always been a niche market, not a luxury one per se. Its roots in the snowboarding industry should be a stark reminder of ACR's appeal as performance, functionality driven brand. Do Acronym jackets feel like luxury goods? Sure, but it's only because of the price inefficiencies that the goods feel so rare and exclusive. It's a symptom, not a feature. This fuels enthusiasts to defend, exaggerate, and be invested in their purchases while real, price-sensitive consumers feel left out and ostracized by the pricing. If J1A is such a great product, let it stand its own against competitors. Don't price yourself out of the battle and claim you've won the hype war. It defeats the performance aspect Acronym has always been about. 

3) "Acronym is successful, and does not need to change." This statement in it of itself ignores the history of ACR as a brand that started from nothing to collaborating with the biggest brands out there. It was specifically because Acronym offered expensive but not overbearingly expensive goods that it was able to make its mark in the fashion world. Can you still say that Acronym is priced fairly when only 5 years ago a hoodie had cost 600 versus its 1500 price tag now? What made Acronym successful over the years was when it had lower prices, and only by increasing the price to meet new demand from exposure via ACG, SISP were they able to temporarily solve the issue of hype-driven demand. Now that they have the resources, (and Errolson his McLaren), they can meet that demand by giving people what they want: a good Acronym product at a fair price. The alternative would be waiting for the hype-driven demand to fade as prices must get higher to gouge the remaining enthusiasts that are left. 

Conclusion:

Without transparency from Acronym regarding stock numbers, it's hard to make models to calculate the exact profit ACR makes, and therefore the 1500-1600 number is only speculation. However, I hope I have proved that there is a reasonable possibility of both a pricing and stock inefficiency in Acronym's current lineup. 

Edited by Orientalq

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5 minutes ago, Orientalq said:

Problem: Acronym prices are hard to justify especially with past prices and stock is too low. Buying ACR at current price points is effectively succumbing to a hype tax. 

ok. i succumb to hype tax. i don't really care bc im not buying acr thinking it's a bargain. i buy it bc i want it. the price is the price. 

buy cheaper, more "fairly priced" clothing if you're looking for products with a good price/value proportion. nobody should seek out luxury goods and then get upset that the price is higher than non-luxury items. 

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34 minutes ago, AvantSol said:

@skycrawler thoughts? Does it have any acr typical features(aux zip etc)?

No aux zips. It is certainly more Tilak than acronym, even the exterior texture of the GT fabric felt different, more rugged than the Acronym shells. But there is the same dna running through the piece in its design approach.

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If I'm not mistaken; the difference might be because they use the 'new' gore tex pro. I really like the neck and hood on this jacket. Shame on no aux zip, would have been cool to attach the 58 to it.

Edited by AvantSol

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21 minutes ago, Orientalq said:

3): A reputable replica manufacturer who did Stone Island Shadow Project with near retail accuracy (aka has a history with repping complex designs) claims to be able to make the J1A-GTPK at 300-500 USD. This news was enough to warrant a personal message from Errolson to the said manufacturer.

lol "reputable replica manufacturer"... oxymorn right there
also, 500USD? do you know how high that actually is? then you should be waging war on nike instead for their markup rofl dude, horse is dead, stop beating it

 

you're talking about transparency as if you're buying stocks. it's a jacket ffs

Edited by moneytalks

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11 minutes ago, Xu Jianfeng said:

I would never name a IP thief as "A reputable replica manufacturer".

Please, please leave us alone.

 

Again with the voldemort argument. Reputable = has a reputation for. Replica manufacturer is literally the definition of what they're doing. I have denounced, disavowed, shit on rep makers for the thieves they are for the nth time but it's never enough. There's always someone using the voldemort argument to discredit the point when in reality it does not matter whether they are thieves or not in the discussion as it relates to manufacturing. 

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Dude, maybe they don't want to scale? Maybe they prefer to sell a handful of models, float inventory, and keep it hype/aspirational? Maybe E wants to pay everyone on the small team a living EUR wage. Maybe he just wants another car.

You wanna might wanna ask those first. It feels like you're pitching for a job/attention with unsolicited advice.

Do you go to a taqueria and ask what their stock volume is like to calculate the exact profit to determine whether a reasonable possibility of both a pricing and stock inefficiency in their current line up?

You talk with so much numerical pseudo-biz fluff yet lack the perspective to understand how any of it works. It's so frustrating. 

 

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