natural versus synthetic indigo

[frideswide]

...and one of the Hinoya Burgus Plus models. (Pity about the funky back pockets, though).

[trinket]

what about the Oni Veg? are they 100% natural?

_trinket

[giantreptile]

Quote:

"then there's the studio sd-d01, sd-d02, sd-101xx, sd-103xx, yen lot105ni, what else ring?"

Off the top of my head, Nudie Veggies, Howies Truthsters, SD 25 anniversary, Aihikos...

--- Original message by ringring on May 22, 2006 03:07 PM

about those howies truthsters; do they actually exist? i saw that they were auctioning them, but i never saw if they actually made them available.

[tweeds]

via the 45rpm thread - could anyone shed some light on this particular line with regards to the "falling" of natural indigo?

When washing, stopping the button, it washes with the cold water with both sides as upside-down. (As for this indigo, the color falling becomes extreme at 35 degrees)

from http://linto.jp/?pid=1779030

translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Flinto.jp%2F%3Fpid%3D1779030&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=ja&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

"this indigo" refers to the natural indigo that SOMET uses for its jeans.

is it a property inherent in all indigo (whether natural or pure) that an increase in temperature decreases its adhesiveness to the yarn? to follow up, does this occur particularly in natural indigo as opposed to synthetic?

p/s - i just re-read the thread - it wasn't so long ago that the experts were still around, was it? it would be great to have you guys back

[viv1984viv]

about those howies truthsters; do they actually exist? i saw that they were auctioning them, but i never saw if they actually made them available.

you can buy natural indigo jeans from howies at the mo.

and linto.co.jp has been bookmarked for me! Somets are so nice, are the ones in your link natural indigo? Thats not a bad price for em if they are natural.

[mickawes]

On http://www.indigofan.com/indigofan/, theres a video of the oxidation happening. Really cool to watch!

[dasman989]

As to the difference in breaking in different denims.... I own the nudie vegies and as an expirement i pulled a loose yarn out of the back pocket. It is core dyed, which means the indog color has penetrated all the way through the yarn. (as opposed to most denim which is ring dyed). Basically what i'm getting at is that the veggies yarns aren't white in the middle like most jeans are. I've compared this to sample threads from my other jeans. So as a result of the break in process you get the same whisker shapes and patterns, just not the highly contratsed blue vs. white. You end up with greater variations of different shades of blue and green.

Also. i have been expirememnting with indigo at home and I also end up with a core dyed yarn. I don't know what about commercial dyeing techniques i.e.(rope or slahser dyeing) leads to a ring dyed product. It seems that all hank dyed yarns end up core dyed. There is great information about the chemistry of the dyeing process in this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Vat-Dyes-Palette-Color/dp/188382205X/sr=8-1/qid=1169479670/ref=sr_1_1/104-7999033-7790311?ie=UTF8&s=books

[xcoldricex]

here is an excerpt of an article from BiG's site on how natural indigo in tokushima is produced... insight to why the premium on it is so high...

text

[Chicken]

On http://www.indigofan.com/indigofan/, theres a video of the oxidation happening. Really cool to watch!

it is really cool. thanks mick.

In it's reduced/liquid state indigo is yellow.

is this why the water turns yellowish sometimes when you soak your denim?

[dasman989]

no. that's starch/finish agents. To reduce ingigo back to the leuco form (i.e yellow) you require a reducing agent and an alkaline solution. Indigo by itself is not soluble in water.

[dasman989]

it is really cool. thanks mick.

is this why the water turns yellowish sometimes when you soak your denim?

no. that's starch/finish agents. To reduce indigo back to the leuco form (i.e yellow) you require a reducing agent and an alkaline solution. Indigo by itself is not soluble in water.

[Chicken]

via the 45rpm thread - could anyone shed some light on this particular line with regards to the "falling" of natural indigo?

from http://linto.jp/?pid=1779030

translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Flinto.jp%2F%3Fpid%3D1779030&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=ja&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

"this indigo" refers to the natural indigo that SOMET uses for its jeans.

is it a property inherent in all indigo (whether natural or pure) that an increase in temperature decreases its adhesiveness to the yarn? to follow up, does this occur particularly in natural indigo as opposed to synthetic?

tip, it says to wash that denim in cold water, buttoned up and inside-out. in the case of natural indigo, washing in higher temperature (starting at around 35 degrees celcius), you start to lose a lot of color.

it doesn't say about how they compare to synthetic indigo. but i know for a fact that natural indigo takes a lot more amount to get dark colors as opposed to synthetic indigos. (this is why natural indigo denim tends to be dipped more thoroughly, making it dyed to the core of the thread, making it very stubborn.) if it takes longer to dye with natural indigo, it might be easier to lose them, too.

no. that's starch/finish agents. To reduce indigo back to the leuco form (i.e yellow) you require a reducing agent and an alkaline solution. Indigo by itself is not soluble in water.

that makes sense. thanks dasman.

[dasman989]

it is really cool. thanks mick.

is this why the water turns yellowish sometimes when you soak your denim?

but i know for a fact that natural indigo takes a lot more amount to get dark colors as opposed to synthetic indigos. (this is why natural indigo denim tends to be dipped more thoroughly, making it dyed to the core of the thread, making it very stubborn.) if it takes longer to dye with natural indigo, it might be easier to lose them, too.

I think we need to look more at the dyeing method and indigo vat preparation method rather than the type of indigo used (synthetic vs. natural). The ai jeans are all done using fermentation vats where live bacteria reduce the indigo to its leuco form. From what i understand this is a delicate life cycle to keep a vat going and it is more difficult to make a super strong solution. Hence more dips a required to get a dark color depth. However, Using natural indigo and thiourea dioxide as a reducing agent you can get an indigo pot concentrated to the point where six dips or so will give a very dark blue. I have done this myself. I think it something in the "fermentation vat" process that gives the rich shades of green seen in the edo-ai's and the nudie veggies.

[Fuuma]

True. You can achieve very dark colours without the use of sulphur.

eg. "Crows Wing" is a description of a colour achieved by French indigo dyers in the 18th century.

Excellent thread: ringring, Paul T, Serge and everyone else who participated in this and stopped posting, please come back.

To add to this "aile de corbeau" aka Crows Wing, is traditionally used in french to describe something that is a very deep black with blue highlights.

I was wondering what type of natural indigo was used to dye Jomons, do they use European, Japanese or American plants?

[denimdestroyedmylife]

they use AI (japanese indigo)

[Chicken]

I think we need to look more at the dyeing method and indigo vat preparation method rather than the type of indigo used (synthetic vs. natural). The ai jeans are all done using fermentation vats where live bacteria reduce the indigo to its leuco form. From what i understand this is a delicate life cycle to keep a vat going and it is more difficult to make a super strong solution. Hence more dips a required to get a dark color depth. However, Using natural indigo and thiourea dioxide as a reducing agent you can get an indigo pot concentrated to the point where six dips or so will give a very dark blue. I have done this myself. I think it something in the "fermentation vat" process that gives the rich shades of green seen in the edo-ai's and the nudie veggies.

cool info.

do you know of any denim using this natural indigo/thiourea dioxide combo?

[Fuuma]

they use AI (japanese indigo)

But is it Tade-Ai (polygonum tinctorium) or one of the myriad of other asian dyes that I've seen mentionned in this thread? I'm just curious and you guys are pretty impressive, I had only heard of Woad before readinfg those excellent 6 pages.

[dasman989]

cool info.

do you know of any denim using this natural indigo/thiourea dioxide combo?

I have no idea what reducing agents commercial denim mills use. The only time i see that advertised is for ai. there are other various reducing agents out there. All of which can be combined with natural indigo. Off the top of my head they are Zinc ( which no one uses any more because of the toxicitiy), sodium hydrosulfite ( sold commercially as RIT color remover), and last but not least.... stale urine which is what was traditionally used in the european woad insudstry...... (yuck).

I'm working on some handwoven denim that will for now be a mix of natural indigo and thiox.... I'm hoping to get a fermentation vat going in the spring to see what kind of results i can get out of it.

[Chicken]

and last but not least.... stale urine which is what was traditionally used in the european woad insudstry...... (yuck).

too bad it was stale urine. if it was fresh, it would've been alright.

what?

I'm working on some handwoven denim that will for now be a mix of natural indigo and thiox.... I'm hoping to get a fermentation vat going in the spring to see what kind of results i can get out of it.

so you're a denim maker? i hope you'll do it so that the denim isn't dyed to the core, personally. i prefer contrasty fades.

[dasman989]

too bad it was stale urine. if it was fresh, it would've been alright.

what?

so you're a denim maker? i hope you'll do it so that the denim isn't dyed to the core, personally. i prefer contrasty fades.

not quite a denim maker yet.... more a denim experimenter.... and i don't know how to to do ring dyed yarns. I am hank dyeing my stuff and i always end up with a core dyed product. I don't know how to go about achieving anything else.... I have'nt yet figured out what it is about rope or slasher dyeing that leads to a ring dyed yarn.

[Chicken]

i've read about the denim used in warehouse 1000xx 10th anniversary edition. i believe it isn't dyed to the core because it is rope dyed instead of hank dyed. they also tighten the tension on the threads so that it's more difficult for the indigo to penetrate all the way through. supposed to achieve good contrasty fades.

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/bears/warehouse-10th1000xx/

[tweeds]

I think it something in the "fermentation vat" process that gives the rich shades of green seen in the edo-ai's and the nudie veggies.

dasman - colour could be due to both the colour inherent source of plant indigo, as well as impurities (other natural dyes) added?

Fuuma - i think ringring's mentioned that it's primarily Tade-Ai, but the jeans have a huge range of shades of colour that i'm sure some changes in the process of manufacture must have occurred.

another question of my own...can anyone explain what "slaked lime" is and why it features so extensively in the natural indigo manufacture process described in the document on BiG's website?

[dasman989]

another question of my own...can anyone explain what "slaked lime" is and why it features so extensively in the natural indigo manufacture process described in the document on BiG's website?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaked_lime

I've seen instructions for making an indigo vat with only lime and zinc. As far as i can tell slaked lime is just another alkaline agent. I don't know why it's necesssary in addition to lye. It seemes that you would only need one or the other..... To reduce indigo to its leuco form you need 2 things. a reducing agent (thiox, sodium-hydrosulfite, zinc, bacteria etc..) and the presence of a strong alkaline.( slaked lime, soda ash, lye). I think you can mix and match or combine your methods.... I believe i read somwhere that the europeans used to soak lime stone in stale urine and then burn it for days to make the lime/urea reagents needed for the dye indusrty. I need to recheck my sources on that last bit...

[tweeds]

I'm working on some handwoven denim that will for now be a mix of natural indigo and thiox.... I'm hoping to get a fermentation vat going in the spring to see what kind of results i can get out of it.

handwoven denim - in a standard width? (i'm assuming a shuttle loom selvedge)

out of curiosity: once in its leuco form, what surfaces can indigo adhere to apart from cotton yarns? can you dye pretty much anything indigo?

[dasman989]

shuttle loom 36 inch max width

here http://www.harrisville.com/html/36_4.html

and yes you can dye just about anything. Most things are actually easier to dye than cotton. With silk or wool, more indigo will adhere during each dip so you need less dips to get the same color depth.

[poly800rock]

"Is it harder to break in natural indigo dyed raw denim than a pair that is made out of synthetic? my edo ai looks like it hasn't faded a bit."

A good question and something I'm keen to learn more about.

Comparisons between the two have been made ever since Basiche Anilin Soda Fabric (BASF) put Adolf Von Baeyer's synthetic 'pure indigo' on the market in 1897.

I strongly suspect that the performance of your Edo's is due to the dyeing method rather than the differences between synthetic and natural indigo. As pointed out above, there is no chemical difference between the two - in fact, according to the esteemed indigo historian, J Balfour Paul, even dye chemists cannot tell the difference between the two.

Natural indigo and synthetic indigo produce the same blue because they are the same. Which leads to the obvious question of 'why aren't all jeans the same colour then?' - which I'll get to later.

The trouble is when making these type of comparisons, you're rarely comparing like with like. The playing field is rarely level. Indigo is an inherently unstable dye that will change with exposure to air, humidity, temperature etc. Fluctuations in dyeing methods will cause different results even between separate lots of the same synthetic indigo. So things can have the same ingredients and be different. Heidi Klum and Jimmy Krankie may have the virtually same DNA but they look different

For example, natural indigo jeans tend to be the flagship styles from these denim brands, so I would expect that they have undergone a dyeing process far in excess of most denim, even other denim from their own collections. eg. more dips, more oxidation time, rope dyed instead of slasher dyed etc.

Then there's the impurities in natural indigo. Some, like indurubin (indigo red), tannins, flavanoids etc. are naturally occurring, others such as madder, carbon (indian ink), wood bark, weird stuff like red ants etc that are added by man.

My own experiences also vary and the opinions of people I'd consider genuine denim experts also have differed a lot. Some people tell me that natural indigo fades quicker, and that you can't achieve as dark blues with plant indigos, others have told me the opposite.

Some natural indigo jeans tend to hold on to their colour amazingly well despite frequent washing (eg 45rpm Aihikos, which also barely crock), others develop whiskers very quickly (Sugarcane Hawaii's, which crock like crazy). Modern natural indigo denim from mills like Tavex & Orta Anadulu seem to behave in very similar ways to their synthetic counterparts. (I believe they use Indian Indigofera Tintoria as the plant source).

Then of course many synthetic indigo jeans also fade faster than others.

"The source of the indigo can make a difference - I'm sure I've been told that indigo from the Far East is capable of giving a darker shade than that from europe, because it derives from different plants species."

That's probably a reference to Woad (isatis tintoria) versus Tade-Ai (polygonum tinctorium, or chinese indigo - most likely the source of indigo for those Edo Ai's). When fermented using the same traditional methods, the polygonum produces a far higher indigo yield. Woad also doesn't dye cellulose fibres like cotton as well as other plant indigo sources. Then there's a whole bunch of different woad species as well as many other Asian indigo plants (eg Strobilanthes flaccidifolius - the source of indigo used in Sugarcan Okinawa's), so again the possibilities for differences in vast.

"I have, however, seen early 1900s natural denim jeans on which the fade is fantastic."

Very likely to be a different dye source to the Edo Ai's, most probably from Indigofera Carolininiana - the species of Indigofera used commercially in North America, and different dyeing methods.

thank you ringring

[Chicken]

dang.

suddenly, i feel smarter.

[synthi]

What a post . . so much info to take in. Thanks.

[viv1984viv]

thats really interesting, I remember starting a stupid thread about a year ago asking if all jeans are dyed using just indigo because I was confused as to why all indigo jeans ( synthetic or otherwise ) look different in hue and saturation etc......

thank poly, this post of ring rings is very informative but certainly makes the subject trickier to approach, if different dyes from different species all behave differntly due to varying dying methods etc etc... so many variables to consider.

I know this is a probably a simplistic question without a straight forward answear but.... I remember chicken explaining how eternals have a red tinge (purple) and omnigods have a yellow tinge (green)...why would this be? Im guessing synthetic indigos have less impuritys so perhaps this might be easier to answear? Are these differences down to process of making the dye or dying the fabric? Im just musing but if someone could add knowledge please chime on in!

[watchman]

this is by far one of my favorite threads. It's amazing to see the knowledge that people on here have about not only the dying process, but the chemical properties of indigo itself. I just hope this stuff keeps getting discussed