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Hm, it's obvious that white guilt and PC-induced SJWism has set in here, a denim discussion forum, and that's a shame. 

 

As someone who is half-Mexican (and not Chicano or some kind of Mexican-American with only a semblance of ties to Mexico), I can probably comment on this a bit. If someone from Spain, for example, wants to wear a T-shirt with a Maya or Aztec image on it, or a photo of Emiliano Zapata or Pancho Villa, I don't care. Why? They're likely not doing it as cultural genocide, or to become the authority on that culture (both false claims made by feminist typists these days about cultural appropriation). Odds are, they just like the image, and the romanticism of what it represents (I think most people will agree that the noble savage and the western gunslinger are appealing characters and good vehicles for escapism). 

 

Identity politics has become a dangerous thing in the West these days. It's funny to go to places like Kyoto, though, where Japanese people will let tourists rent yukata and kimono to wear and walk around town in. They don't get offended by this form of "cultural appropriation": they embrace it, because they know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery (and they make money off it). Political correctness has no power here. They know that this is a way for people to market their culture for them. 

 

That's not to say things can't go too far or be done in poor taste (i.e. the Cleveland Indians' logo, or the Redskins team name). However, it seems everybody's looking to be offended about something these days. 

 

P.S. Perhaps someone will be offended by my avatar and ask me to change it? 

 

 

This is not about political correctness, and we will not stop to love SDA stuff for the great quality and beauty of their products, weaves and designs.

So far no one has been judged, or was forced by crude statements to change his opinion on a certain matter.

 

But this discussion is utterly relevant, yes, we are fanboys, but that doesn't mean we have to act like fanatics. After all, ignorance is no excuse.

Further, that a single mexican guy is "okay" with spanish people wearing Maya or Aztek images does not mean anything at all.

Native American people are offended by the way modern fashion "embraces" sacred parts of their culture, or their culture at all. That is well documented in us american magazines, and blogs and what not. There is just no need for a relativation on that matter.

 

That said, I really get what Ben is talking about, and I can follow his line. Still, I would never ever wear anything with a head-dress on. Besides, the rest of the Flat Heads stuff is awesome. It's not like we crucify SDA or TFH over just one or two Ts, or any guy wearing that stuff.

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I worry that some of what I've been posting might give the idea that I'm publicly condemning the owners of the clothing we've deemed controversial here, and even that I may be trying to stir some sort of negative sentiment about a certain brand or style or what have you. To be honest, that's not at all how I like to approach these things. If somebody is educated on a particular issue, they are welcome to make whatever decision they'd like about how to approach it. It is ignorance that creates problems. I think that Ben spoke along these lines very well:

 

...[Y]ou can enjoy and admire some of the aspects of a certain time/civilization without necessarily endorsing everything that happened at that time. It's the same reason why I enjoy Flat Head's obsession with the 50's... I love the clothing, big cars, opulence, cockeyed optimism if you will... but I also recognize that it was a really crappy time for a lot of people. But I don't let the presence of bad things affect my love for the good stuff.

 

This may well be the mindset of a lot of people here; it certainly is for me. I still own a number of SDA and Flat Head shirts, despite having written off any desire to own any of the particular pieces we've mentioned. It doesn't make me think any worse about either company, but it makes me think about what perspective the designers got when they researched the time period they are drawing inspiration from.

 

Early this year, for example, when Mr. Freedom released the Saigon Cowboy line, there was a lot of controversy around a specific jacket featuring what many considered to be a "stereotypical caricature of a Vietcong fighter" (taken from http://www.rawrdenim.com/2015/01/mister-freedom-pulls-patch-ss-15-saigon-cowboy-collection/).For a time, Christophe pulled the offensive material from the jacket, which I took to mean that he had maybe been introduced to a new perspective. That's not to say that I believe he was completely ignorant beforehand, but instead that he just thought he was not going to be significantly offending anybody with his design. In fact, the above article mentions the huge amount of research put into the season's pieces. It's clear to me, then, that Christophe had learned a more objective history of the time period than somebody who had never looked outside of what they had learned in school or from pop culture. So when the jackets rolled out and the offensive patch was back on, I couldn't say anything against it. Christophe was likely educated sufficiently on the issue to make an informed decision on how he wanted to proceed, regardless of the controversy that it had caused.

 

So Ben and Christophe are both equally justified in their decisions. They know both sides of the debate before taking a side. I would like to think I also know both sides of the debate we've been part of here, but have moved in the opposing direction. It's possible to feel justified with your opinion regardless, as long as you can understand the rationale behind the other possible stances. The situations in which I feel it is right to interfere are when somebody is likely not aware of the reasoning of their peers; I feel this because I often find it difficult to justify a position I am not educated on and enjoy the clarity that comes from getting to know both sides of an issue. And once both sides are known, then a person should be able to reasonably justify their position regardless of which side they take, which many here are doing.

 

Anyway, I'm open to speaking with people via PM from here but agree with Foxy that it's not best to continue this sort of debate in this thread.

Edited by chicote
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No need to carry on discussion in a balanced, thoughtful manner people: Iron Horse has rode in to let us know that based on his own anecdotal experience he has learned objective truths about what is and is not offensive to people generally.

 

I guess I'll just go find an African American cool with white people using the n-word; once he says he doesn't take offence if anyone else complains they're just being prickly sensitive Stanford Jazzers. Problem solved!

 

In direct SDA stuff - does anyone have significant fading on the x's-33s yet? I've been wearing mine hard and it's only just starting to show some. Need to wait for morning here in Oz to take pics of mine, but will post up if people are interested.

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No need to carry on discussion in a balanced, thoughtful manner people: Iron Horse has rode in to let us know that based on his own anecdotal experience he has learned objective truths about what is and is not offensive to people generally.

 

I guess I'll just go find an African American cool with white people using the n-word; once he says he doesn't take offence if anyone else complains they're just being prickly sensitive Stanford Jazzers. Problem solved!

 

In direct SDA stuff - does anyone have significant fading on the x's-33s yet? I've been wearing mine hard and it's only just starting to show some. Need to wait for morning here in Oz to take pics of mine, but will post up if people are interested.

 

 

BradL has some pretty crazy x-33 fades

 

EDIT: here they are http://imgur.com/a/RDNZk

Edited by cmboland
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Blue Nemo, yes it's well-documented these days, and if it upsets people then it upsets them. I will note that older American Indian activists rarely turned their attention to this issue though, as frankly they had bigger fish to fry. That's why I noted that cultural appropriation as a buzzword is mostly recent and the work of bored feminists. For example, the Redskins debacle in which many Indians were offended by the name and others, including the president of the Navajo Nation, liked it, or didn't mind.

No need to carry on discussion in a balanced, thoughtful manner people: Iron Horse has rode in to let us know that based on his own anecdotal experience he has learned objective truths about what is and is not offensive to people generally.

I guess I'll just go find an African American cool with white people using the n-word; once he says he doesn't take offence if anyone else complains they're just being prickly sensitive Stanford Jazzers. Problem solved!

In direct SDA stuff - does anyone have significant fading on the x's-33s yet? I've been wearing mine hard and it's only just starting to show some. Need to wait for morning here in Oz to take pics of mine, but will post up if people are interested.

Very funny, you've managed to show why millennials aren't to be taken seriously yet. Rather than directly refute anything I've said, you reply with snark.

Also your n-word example is silly. I already said these things can be taken too far. Frankly, you do sound gotten to and sensitive. Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread anymore, though I'm disappointed that the thought police didn't deem my comment worthy as it didn't push the narrative.

Edited by Iron Horse
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Ok knock this

 

Blue Nemo, yes it's well-documented these days, and if it upsets people then it upsets them. I will note that older American Indian activists rarely turned their attention to this issue though, as frankly they had bigger fish to fry. That's why I noted that cultural appropriation as a buzzword is mostly recent and the work of bored feminists.

Very funny, you've managed to show why millennials aren't to be taken seriously yet. Rather than directly refute anything I've said, you reply with snark.

Also your n-word example is silly. I already said these things can be taken too far. Frankly, you do sound gotten to and sensitive. Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread anymore, though I'm disappointed that the thought police didn't deem my comment worthy as it didn't push the narrative.

 

Ok knock it off now, all of you, move it to the general chat thread if you want to continue this. It's getting out of hand.

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Does anyone know if SDA have discontinued the 14oz left hand twill 00* range? It's not on their new website and a search for their 001 model on Rakuten is fairly fruitless.

The website also no longer has the XX natural 14oz indigo range although Denimio seem to have a number of these models.

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Yeah Bradl's X-33 are amazing.  Shame they lost so much nep through the process of wear though.

There is still a little hanging out under the cuff, but yeah I feel yeah. I really wish I could find another pair. I am sure foxy has on ;)

 

Well, I looked up SJW on the Internet and am not sure how relevant it is here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Jazz_Workshop

 

With your tight rhymes I thought you would've been urban enough to use this.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SJW

 

@aries, please do post them have only seen mine and houstonchris's 

Edited by bradl
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Ok knock this

 

 

Ok knock it off now, all of you, move it to the general chat thread if you want to continue this. It's getting out of hand.

 

Honestly Cmboland, Iron Horse is the only one really pushing it:"bored feminists, thought police...." Everybody involved did their best in discussing this subject cool and objecitve, without judging anyone for anything. In an actual appropriate manner. Despite his first two comments maybe, the rest  lack these attributes.

 

I still think this is a relevant subject and that it is important, why not? And I am pretty happy about how this went so far, never thought I meet so many like-minded people regarding this issue on a raw denim forum. And Cmboland, despite your impression, I don't feel that we already reached the point where we should shut up because it gets out of hand.

 

Anyway, I think all points have been made, and although I disagree with Iron Horse in any possible way, that is okay too.

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Ok knock this

 

 

Ok knock it off now, all of you, move it to the general chat thread if you want to continue this. It's getting out of hand.

 

Honestly Cmboland, Iron Horse is the only one really pushing it:"bored feminists, thought police...." Everybody involved did their best in discussing this subject cool and objecitve, without judging anyone for anything. In an actual appropriate manner. Despite his first two comments maybe, the rest  lack these attributes.

 

I still think this is a relevant subject and that it is important, why not? And I am pretty happy about how this went so far, never thought I meet so many like-minded people regarding this issue on a raw denim forum. And Cmboland, despite your impression, I don't feel that we already reached the point where we should shut up because it gets out of hand.

 

Anyway, I think all points have been made, and although I disagree with Iron Horse in any possible way, that is okay too.

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However, it seems everybody's looking to be offended about something these days. 

I've got to say that I do agree with this sentiment in some capacity. It gets really tiresome.

Then again I'm saying this as a white American male, so.

But at the same time I do feel weird whenever I see a tee with some kind of Native American imagery on it, especially a pig wearing a headdress.

Anyways, I think a lot of the SDA tees are awesome.

Some of my favorites:

sdfx-008_5.jpgv

imgrc0064054296.jpg

9758E382B9E38386E383A5E38387E382A3E382AA

c0204678_12171943.jpg

img62863141.jpg

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Does anyone know if SDA have discontinued the 14oz left hand twill 00* range? It's not on their new website and a search for their 001 model on Rakuten is fairly fruitless.

The website also no longer has the XX natural 14oz indigo range although Denimio seem to have a number of these models.

.

BiG still got a few pairs of Slim Tapered 007s 15oz. The legs drape fine, for me, since I got slenderish thighs, but the rise is too low ... even for me.

'Asked Gordon if he can special order the 003__ he said, he'll make the inquiry & will get back to me. Will ask what's up w/ the prodn LHT next time i swing by.

As for the 14oz XX, BiG still has full stock on 101xx & 103xx

Edited by BrownMetallic
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The SDL-703 jeans i bought for my girlfriend just arrived, there isn't much info out there on them that i could find here i found a couple posts in the women's jeans thread about sizing. so here are my photos and a small write up. it's the same fabric that they use in their men's jeans with 1 blue and 1 red selvedge line CG7GcGJ.jpgthe denim feels pretty regular with a little bit of crunch, they aren't too stiff i think the denimio website says they are 14oz (i think).1KbbEBz.jpgthere's a tonal stitch that runs just below the arcs, i thought it would be 1/3 lined pockets, but there isn't any lining so it's just decorativeVd6yfXJ.jpgmy LG G3 almost fits completely in the pocket(without legs inside so...?) ubdEmWK.jpgtaking one for the team with this fit pic the rise is way low and the waist is loose all around a horrible fit but i'm not the body type they are designed for.KPiNDEC.jpgMaXzehf.jpgappears to be raised belt loops, i'm not sure i've never owned a pair with them before. the fabric is slightly hairy not too much but just enough.oeLGyjc.jpgOat3LXg.jpgA53OPaj.jpgrivet detail featuring sda branding looks pretty standard rivet nice and shiny, hard to photograph.MLfn5v1.jpgthe jeans are a size 30 once washed 

Measurements:

waist 31"

front rise 8.5"

back rise 12"

thigh 10.5"

knee 7.5"

opening 7"

 

i would get fit pics on the lady but i can't because she is away, if you have any questions ask me i'll try my best to help. :)

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Bit late, but have to add praise to Chicote for his posts. Really good.

 

And..

 

 

...completely agree. Without discussion this place just becomes a stagnant water of fawning over faded jeans and fit pics. 

 

Don't like reading? Scroll past.

 

So long as people are allowed to disagree though, rather than merely discuss through platitudes. 

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"SJWs", "feminists" "millennials".

So you attack someone's position by assigning them a category meant to diminish their validity as a person allowed to engage in debate.

Meanwhile you've indicated you agree that using certain words, like the n-word (which was at one time *very* acceptable), and I'm guessing you'd agree words like 'homo', 'bitch' and 'slut', to devalue someone by diminishing them to a biological characteristic or lifestyle choice is unacceptable.

So how do you reconcile using the logic of bigotry to deny bigotry exists? You're on the wrong side of history.

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 I'm guessing you'd agree words like 'homo', 'bitch' and 'slut', to devalue someone by diminishing them to a biological characteristic or lifestyle choice is unacceptable.

 

Edit: I misread your post, thanks to Chicote for pointing that out; yes those are generally awful things to call people as they're true pejoratives, unlike the phrases I used, though SJW is borderline. I think people were always generally fine with being referred to by their so-called generation (Baby Boomers, Gen X, Pepsi Generation, Gen Y) until the Millenials. 

 

So you attack someone's position by assigning them a category meant to diminish their validity as a person allowed to engage in debate.

...

 You're on the wrong side of history.

 

Pot meet kettle. I'm not hip to this anymore, man.

Edited by Iron Horse
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^ I think the statement you quoted is saying that you don't use those words, not insinuating that you do. If I'm reading Aries' post right, he is saying that categorizing entire groups of people (ie. "millennials") as having certain unalienable traits is akin to dehumanizing somebody by calling them "homo" etc., in that it diminishes the person's ability to be seen as an entire, complex human being and instead as a number of labels, often with negative connotations attached to them. In essence, he argues that it is better to take each person as a unique combination of characteristics and experiences as opposed to the rather two-dimensional perspective offered by narrow categorizations.

 

In the same vein, I would argue it is equally unpalatable to base the perspectives of an entire group of people off of the perspective of a single person. I think this when I hear arguments along the lines of, "I am ___, or I have a ___ friend, and because I/they are not offended by my use of (x word), I am free to use (x word) as I please." Doing so may honor the experience of the referenced person, but it disregards the experience of everybody else in that particular group who may not feel the same way.

 

This doesn't mean that a person can never act in any way that may be perceived offensive... that would make for a horribly dull and anxiety-ridden life. Instead, it is best to make oneself aware of the different audiences they interact with over the course of a day, and to approach each interaction from a baseline of sensitivity and respect until they have received some sort of signal that makes it appropriate to do otherwise.

 

None of these suggestions are meant to be attacks on any person or their character; everything we have talked about is abstract and cannot logically be associated with the actions of anybody here. I would hope that if this conversation continues it can do so with this idea of abstraction in mind. Just as labeling somebody can negate their other qualities, personal attacks in a thread devoid of a tangible subject only distract from the possibility of a civil debate.

Edited by chicote
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Chicote nailed it, as always.

 

Iron Horse - maybe instead of telling people what is/is not offensive, you come to realise that different people find different things offensive based on their personal history. Sure if someone calls you something like 'homo', 'cocksucker' etc. it may have no affect upon you, but it would upon someone who has been marginalised and dehumanised throughout their life for their sexuality. Apply this equally to ethnicity, gender, lifestyle etc.

 

Perhaps, overall, we might proceed from the belief that when people say they are offended, they are, and we should respect that and understand why, instead of shouting them down or attempting to invalidate their position ad hominem by name calling like "SJW", "feminist" (who the hell is against equal rights btw?!), "millennials" etc.

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I don't want to open a can of works here, but the end goal of modern feminism is to absolve women of responsibility and maximize the responsibility of men.

You can open a thread for this in another sub forum if you like.

Edited by Iron Horse
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