Susumu

On 6/11/2018 at 7:51 PM, mpukas said:

I just posted this comment on the Heddels article about organic cotton; 

 

This is a rather poorly written and under researched article. There's some factual correctness, but there's also myths, mis-understandings, and incorrect info. Big Organic is a mega-billion $$$ industry, and there's prolific use of propaganda and fear mongering to promote and protect the industry. Organic is a complex and polarizing topic, and it can be difficult to separate facts from ideology.

This linked article is well written and researched by someone in another branch of the fashion/apparel world. Even though it's 3+ years old now, it's still relevant and consistent with what I currently read elsewhere. The article sites sources of data and provides links for further info. 

https://fashionhedge.com/2015/03/12/the-truth-about-organic-cotton/ 

 

I've been meaning to bring up the topic here for some time. I used to be pro-organic. Some years ago I decided to do some reading/research/listening outside of the organic echo chamber, and I found much info that has made me completely change my tune about organic. In fact I'm quite disgusted by some of the propaganda and fear mongering tactics Big Organic uses to promote it's industry. 

I'm not intending to start a political or ideological argument about conventional vs organic. I am interested to know of real factual data about cotton. The only pair of jeans I own that I know are of organic cotton are the Samurai 16th anniversary S510OG 16oz AK. They're one of my favorite pairs and one of my favorite denims, but I don't think that because they are of organic cotton that has anything to do with it. I feel there are many denims that are made with high-quality conventional denim that are extraordinary. Any other clothing that I have that is made of organic cotton is indistinguishable from something made with conventional cotton. 

If there are in fact benefits from organic vs conventional cotton, then I'd surely be open to supporting it, but I've yet to find anything to convince me. 

Hi mpukas,

I come almost nine months later, but I have to intervene; the article you linked is pretty misleading and slanted.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “benefits from organic” cotton, but I’m going to try explaining why organic cotton is so crucial.

 

Firstly, I admit that not everything is idyllic in organic farming, and there are some misconceptions for some people for sure, but organic farming is not a scam – even when “big”.

The person in the article, when it comes to organic farming, talks about “a fairly young practice”, about “an imperfect science”, and when it comes precisely to organic cotton, talks about “a good initiative”… “but it is not going to save the world”.

Well, it's the world upside down. In the history of humanity, it’s what we call “conventional agriculture” that is a fairly young practice and an imperfect science. It depends on the type of crops, but organic farming was the only way we got until roughly 100 years ago. The conventional agriculture as we know it, soared really after WWII – mostly intensive farming with the use of pesticides.

What is more new is the conjunction of intensive farming competitiveness applied to organic agricultural methods.

 

Now, some facts:

 

The article is citing the WWF: “The use of genetically-modified cotton varieties has increased in recent years reaching 20% (67.7 million ha) of the global crop area in 2002.”

Sure… 2002… for an article written in 2015.

Well, I have some news to tell: genetically-modified cotton is ultra dominant, it represents more than 90% of the global cotton production. On the other side, organic cotton represents 1% of the worldwide production.

This means that if you buy some cotton clothes that don’t have an organic certification, you can be pretty sure it means you got 100% genetically-modified cotton.

 

Now, what is genetically-modified cotton?

The other name of this ultra dominant cotton is “Bt cotton”. They added a gene, that permits the cotton to produce an insecticide – Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) – that kills bollworm.

 

It’s certainly difficult to understand and assert the hazardousness of genetically-modified cotton from a biological point of view.

However, from an economic and legal point of view, its hazardousness is indisputable.

It would probably not convinced everyone if I called Bt cotton “the sorcerer's apprentice cotton”, but if I call it “patented cotton”, because it’s what it is, I hope to have a solid point.

 

Every year, cotton farmers around the globe have to buy cotton seeds, Bt cotton seeds, and because they’re patented, can cost a lot more to the farmer. In India, for instance, it can be almost ten times more expensive than non genetically-modified cotton, because of royalties. (Patented doesn't necessarily means GMO, but it’s a bit the case here.)

But this isn’t over, when you grow GM cotton, you enter a system and you have to buy and use the whole package. This package consists mostly on one side of the patented seeds, and on the other side, of a lot of pesticides; pesticides that are of course patented and absolutely necessary to have a good crop. Ideally, with Bt cotton, you use less insecticide than non-GM conventional cotton – because it’s already secreted by the plant itself –, but you still need to use others insecticides for others insects, and you still need to use herbicides – some say you have to use more herbicides compared to non-GM conventional cotton. This seems pretty frequent when I search: less insecticides but more herbicides.

 

But calling this GM cotton an imperfect science would be a euphemism.

The not so funny thing is that the Bt cotton is often less and less effective over time because insects gains some resistance to Bacillus thuringiensis. This means you have to use more and more pesticides trying to save the crops. It has happened all around the world. The economic consequences for the farmers can be very serious, moreover the farmers are in a vicious circle where they’re absolutely dependant of these patented products (seeds and pesticides).

 

There is also the contamination issue; non GM crops get easily contaminated by GM crops – because ultra dominant, not because they’re GM –, meaning that some cotton varieties are in danger, it’s killing diversity and traditional or ancient varieties, which is crucial from a security perspective in agriculture. In most areas of the world, non GM cotton is threatened by patented cotton. If I remember correctly it has already been declared illegal to have patented stuff if you didn’t pay for it – I remember at least this from Mexican maize and Monsanto willing to take legal action.

 

We are loosing hundred of varieties because of this economic system – among others things –, varieties that have been crafted for thousand of years by mankind by crossing and genetical selections. It already happened 200 years ago with American cotton in India, but now, it’s far worse and more global.

All this in favour of a few corporation that want to sell a simulacrum of nature.

 

When we talk about cotton, it’s quite deceitful to sum up the problem with the simplistic opposition between conventional and organic agriculture and creating confusion with the ideas of synthetic pesticides and what is allowed or not in organic methods – organic cotton is in no way comparable to conventional cotton in this regard.

 

It’s the harsh truth, when you think “cotton”, you have to think “GM vs organic cotton”.

I don’t remember seeing a manufacturer indicate that his cotton is non GM; there are exceptions, but most of the time, buying non-organic cotton means buying proprietary technology.

 

Obviously, organic cotton is also a business; some lies have probably been told by some companies – but I don’t know of any concrete example.

But big and long-term lies, corruption and manipulation are on the other side. Conventional agriculture doesn’t need propaganda, it’s just here, ultra dominant, relying on money mechanics to last.

I very well know that what I wrote is slanted, too.

 

But one thing is sure, if you see “big organic” in the cotton field, what is Monsanto/Bayer for instance? The big money – where it becomes power – is there.

Organic cotton is probably the last bastion of real cotton.

 

Some links/sources:

 

About Bt cotton resistance: (just search “Bt cotton resistance” on Internet to get plenty of information)

In India:

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/bt-cotton-has-failed-admits-monsanto-68749-2010-03-06

In US:

https://agfax.com/2017/07/21/cotton-bollworm-bt-cotton-resistance-showing-up-from-north-carolina-to-texas-dtn/

 

About Bt cotton royalties, on a state-level:

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/India-Cuts-Monsanto-Seed-Royalties-for-3rd-Time-20190311-0007.html

This is what working with nature looks like now. And this is nothing compared to the farmer-level, where it can be far worse.

 

Burkina Faso abandoned GM cotton and said this cotton had poor quality:

https://www.dw.com/en/burkina-faso-abandons-gm-cotton/a-19362330

Also, Fair trade is incompatible with GMO, because of economic dependency; some (most? all?) fair trade organizations clearly banned GM cotton.

 

Information on cotton, from a GM point of view:

http://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/briefs/53/download/isaaa-brief-53-2017.pdf

 

Information on cotton, from an organic point of view:

About water consumption comparison (interesting about the “blue water”, “green water”…):

https://textileexchange.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/TE-LCA_of_Organic_Cotton-Fiber-Summary_of-Findings.pdf

Comparison on what is allowed or not (I admit that “hazardous pesticides” is subject to interpretation, but there are more sources that exist) :

https://textileexchange.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/TE_Preferred-Cotton-Matrix_Production-Systems-1.pdf

Organic Cotton Market Report 2018:

https://textileexchange.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/2018-Organic-Cotton-Market-Report.pdf

Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production(also linked in the “article”):

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b68d34f550b446a41ff8e909c9f225fd&mc=true&node=se7.3.205_1601&rgn=div8

We can see what synthetic means: Alcohols, soap-based things, oils seem a lot less complex than glyphosate (which is used in conventional cotton agriculture). I’m not saying everything on this list is intrinsically good.

I could also respond about this study in soybeans, but it’s getting too long.

It’s just a start. I did not tell everything – but I know so little at the same time.

I’m open to discussion.

13 hours ago, mpukas said:

... the 20th is organic...

I’m not sure what model you’re talking about, but as I posted on January, there are no 2018 models that are fully made with organic cotton in the spring-summer collection.

The two announced 20^th OG models are now 20^thXX models, since there is no organic cotton in this denim.

S510OG25oz-20th is now S510XX25oz-20th.

S511OG25oz-20th is now S511XX25oz-20th.

So after all, “OG” still stands for “organic”.

Sorry, there is one more thing. I think you inverted “weft” (3 times) and “warp” (3 times) on your site.

Wow, good job OkayamaDenim! That was pretty fast.

No more doubts!

I had not seen the Okayama Denim description until now, but I don’t think it’s accurate.

Trying to read the spring-summer collection PDF these last few days, I had several doubts about some models, so I asked Denimio.

Mostly thanks to their answer, here is what I know:

There are no 2018 models that are fully made with organic cotton – nonetheless, I hope there’ll be something in the autumn-winter collection.  

The S000SJC model has its weft made from the Japanese Samurai organic cotton.
The warp is made from superior pima cotton, and apparently, it’s not an organic one – although it exists.
Also, no “aizome”, dyeing was made with standard synthetic indigo.

The two heavy weight “OG” models (S510OG25oz-20th & S511OG25oz-20th) are not made with organic cotton at all.
As for 2018, “OG” doesn’t stand for “organic” anymore – I always thought it was before.

In retrospect, I understand that the 2017 S003SJC model has the same difference between warp and weft.

Denimio also told me they’re selling a last year model I wasn’t aware of: the S710SJC19oz-AI – 2nd has it too.
It’s made with the Japanese Samurai organic cotton – but again I’m not sure it’s 100%, warp and weft now... –, but thanks to its price tag of  ¥107,999, it’s a “aizome” one (hand dyed with natural indigo).

Thanks for your answers.

 

I wrote to him seven days ago, I guess I need to be more patient then.

I'll try as you suggest S-Town, I could at least get precise information on the sizes.

Hi,

 

I would like to know if the official Samurai japanese online shop sells outside Japan and is english-friendly.

I'm looking for a particular belt of the brand but it is out of stock on Rakuten for the sizes that could fit.

I tried Kaizoku Pirates but got no answers.

 

Thanks in advance for any help .

Finally, a page has been created for the 311OG.

Oh yeah you're right, part of the answer was just under my nose !

So S311 has one more button.

 

And I've partially found the answer to my "belt over the cinch" question.

 

The S8000 cinch seems to be higher and closer to the belt.

 

The S311 cinch is clearly lower down.

 

I hope it's a good indication for the rise.

 

On the S8000 the belt would really be over the cinch, I don't know if it's possible to wear it with a belt without cutting it.

But on the S311 I don't know if the cinch is low enough to not interfere with the belt.

I'm lost, S8000 and S311, what are those cuts ? Compared to a S510 cut ? And the rise ?

 

I can't find any infos, any help ?

How is the S8000 cut ? Similar to the S510 but with slightly thinner leg ? What about the rise ?

 

Is it possible to wear a belt over the back cinch or do you have to cut it before ?

Well, you got (here) è—染゠and å¤©ç„¶è— (20 repetitions process).

You don't find those terms in the pages of the four other OGs. (s710OG s500OG s5000OG s3000OG)

 

But you'll find them here on other natural indigo models: http://www.samurai-j.com/lineup/jeans/s510ai-ogsp/ http://www.samurai-j.com/lineup/jeans/s5000ai24oz/ http://www.samurai-j.com/lineup/jeans/s5000ai_ogsp/

 

Also BiG say the same (they got a page since last week).

 

"Aizome" seem to be used only for the natural indigo process (at least on Samurai's site).

 

I can be wrong however, I always wondered if there was a catch with this model since it does not seem to sell very well .

.. So it's a mix between the designation AI (Aizome) as used in other models and the K (Kakishibu), one letter for the warp and another for the weft ?

BTW - what does "AK" stand for? (BF - do you know?) Cheers! mpp

 I wonder too !

Susumu,

 

I did see the price on those -- yikes!  Funny how they're so much more expensive than other OG Samurais (e.g., 710).  Not sure why -- maybe fewer made?

 

John

Yes, as b_F said about the persimmon dyeing. And there is the natural indigo dyeing too.

The fact that it's a limited edition (300 pairs but not sure) is probably not really reflected in the price.

They come from 2nd.

 

Edit:

Organic cotton was my first requirement, then high rise and the fit like you said, got no choice on the price .

The washing machine was out of order, so I made a 50°C soak with a lot of agitation (didn't want to wait any longer), got a bit more shrinkage (and the lake was bluer that night ).

 

Anyway, here are some shots (pre-soak, most of) for anyone interested in the s510OG (not a lot I think ) :

 

 

 

 

 

(More shots)

Thanks for the response.

Yes and no, the values say no but putting on the pair, the difference is huge.

 

Pre/post soak :

(only 4 measurements but by BiG standards)

 

Waist : 45/44 cm

Thigh : 34.5/33.7 cm

Leg opening : 24/23.5 cm

Inseam : 94.8/90 cm (hemmed 6cm pre soak, so according to Samurai's official length (89-91) they're really hard to shrink.)

 

How much time should I machine wash ?

Hello there,

 

Just got a pair of s510OG, I hesitated between 34 and 35, finally went for the latter to be safer with the thighs.

 

After two bath soaks I think 34 would have been ok but I'm less sure about the global fit (I prefer a small pinch of baggy).

The only problems right now (for what I see) are the folds around the front rise and the space in the buttocks. (bump right on the coccyx)

 

Will it disappear as stiffness goes off or should I do a machine wash ? Or is it really too big ?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Here the pics :