CB200

 I've a feeling that Outlier hit the point where the brand's basic concept worked but the business was heading in a direction that wasn't that interesting to the founders. I'm sure the new product a week, or what ever it is, drops and sourcing new fabrics is way more interesting than figuring out how to sell the same pair of pants made from Scholler dryskin day in and day out. I kind of like the weirdness of their experiments, but like many things, that sentiment likely won't lead to my financial support.

Fabric care instructions are there to provide guidance for the proper and safe care of garments . There's allot of laminations and taping in the garments and many fabrics , but not the two styles you mention, are laminates themselves. This means they use adhesive glue in their creation. Glue will become weaker as it reaches the melting point. Adding agitation in a dryer at the same point- is not a great idea. As well, some fabrics can shrink and deform with high enough heat or have their face damaged while being tossed around in a dryer under high heat when  they come in contact with other materials.

Good logo changes are part of a clear re-positioning of a brands focus. Bad ones are empty moves to "freshen things up". 

TNF in Japan has always seemed so solid - and separate form the rest of the world... well other than HK.  I think the new Creative director for the TNF's main brand work should start to be seen more and more. He's been there for a year so influence probably slowly showing up. Balancing the legacy of TNF, in street wear and in the outdoors, while adding something fresh seems like a challenge. His previous work could certainly leans more to the fashion-forward side of things. Mix that with the TNF outdoor legacy and there might be some interesting pieces coming through to those of us outside Japan. That's if he's given the "OK" from the money folks to move beyond milking their their classics like the Nuptse.  I think there's a good chance we'll see some interesting things come from TNF if the CD stays on.

3 hours ago, Inkinsurgent said:

i appreciate the enthusiasm for materials innovation that vollebak seems to be all about, but they really need to work on their aesthetic. their pieces always look derivative and seem to lack for identity.

I think part of that aesthetic impression, for me, is that they have focused on a single product drops. They aren't dropping a collection or capsule. So it's been kind of piecemeal. I can certainly understand the view you've got that designs are looking derivative. It's kind of hard to reinvent the shirt or a pant, but designers do make things fresh inside these constraints. Might not be a concern for them if they're putting fabric choices on top.

I'm interest in what they are doing, but also something that's a bit off... maybe it's just not for me. I love that they're pulling in intetesting fabrics into designs but I'm left wondering,  is there one single designer who's been behind all the designs or is this more the result of outsourcing product design and development that handled by a creative director? I can't tell. But does that matter? 

I guess it's working for them. They've sold that initial run of the pant at , to my eyes, a very premium price for a non-fashion brand and people are thinking and talking about them. Success for a brand is finding enough people who are willing to pay for pieces at a prices that allows you to move forward and grow. They seem to be doing that and outside the norms of regular clothing categories and distribution. Looks like they've found their dudes. I'm likely not one of them.

On 2018-11-08 at 12:42 PM, Bigyen said:

In doing research on this I found another forum with a guy who said he spoke to someone who worked for Gore-tex. The guy said he would deny it if ever confronted, but says there are certain people who's oils and sweat just don't mix well with Gore-Tex, and pieces are much quicker to delam. Thinking back, I've had Gore-Tex jackets for the past 20+ years and they all delam. Guessing it's time to move onto a new fabric.

If your body chemistry is tough on the polymers that are used to laminate the layers in Gore's fabric it's likely going to be a challenge to other laminated fabrics technologies as well. ETA proof or Ventile isn't laminated. Might be a good option. A fabric based on a monolithic membrane might function longer for you as body oils shouldn't be able to get through the membrane. That's just theoretical though. Sweat still could get into the backing fabric and might pull away. Regardless of the type of fabric of the shell, knowing you've not had good luck in the past, you'll want to ensure that you increase your cadence of washing and rinsing of your shells. I don't think anyone washes their technical shells nearly as often as what might be necessary to get body oils out. 

My view is that clothes are consumables. Care can help extend the life of a garment but won't preserve them forever. It sucks when it's an interesting piece starts to go, but better to have loved a piece to death than leave it stuck on a rack as a museum piece. It just kind of sucks that if a shell gains appreciable character overtime the performance declines as well. Boro style and a wabi sabi view seem to be a bit hard with synthetics and techwear. Might just be an attitude. Be interesting to see the newer ACR pieces with raw edges develop over time. Anyone have any interesting wear develop on those yet?

22 hours ago, Bigyen said:

Delamintaion Update

Nothing back from ACR proper. The boss tweeted back and said the fix would be a tedious job of cutting out the delamination and applying seem tape. I'm thinking about grabbing some Gear Aid Gore-tex patches, cutting out the delamination and applying them to the inside of the jacket, and then seam taping off the edges of the patches. I know these patches are meant to go on the outside of a shell, but it seems easier to apply 4x6" patches instead of small strips of seem tape.

Thoughts?

 

The issue is oil contamination... I'd ensure that as much of that is removed from the jacket as possible before anything. Next is to determine if the delam is only on the inside of the jacket or if the oil has helped breakdown the laminate between the face and the membrane. Gently pinch the face fabric on the opposite side. If it's only on the inside it is possible to use a spray on adhesive or other glues to get the backer to stick to the membrane again. The adhesives will need to be able to flow through the backing fabric so it will stick. Gear-aid is a pressure sensitive and would likely only stick to the backer that's already pulled away. If the face is leaking you'd get a little wet pocket that could help delam the spot more as it may not dry well.

Pulling the back panel out and rebuilding the jacket would be the best, but check the other areas of sweat and oil buildup ie: underarms to see if that might be an issue as well. Not sure who would take on the job of a rebuild other than rainy pass and the factory who built the piece in the first place not going to be many options. 

Doesn't look like Beyond ventured out much design wise. Using mystery fabrics and possibly offshoring production has let them drop their prices a bit. Would be nice to know some specs on the garments. Some of their original line was a getting up there in price but not crazy. I'd say the one women's piece is a miss with the fur collar. Comes across as trying too hard to girly up a design. Seems out of place on a soft-shell.  From a technically focused brand to make that their first move into the women's market seems off. 

"Alpha is (last I checked) notorious for its poor durability"

With a woven insulation like Alpha I think there is some advantage for lifespan vs loose fills as it won't settle or clump. A bit surprised to hear that it's notoriously poor as my own experience with Alpha has been positive, up to this point.  

2 hours ago, szg said:

Well, that could throw a wrench into complaints about production in China (at least, after a fashion): https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/09/11/business/11reuters-amer-sports-stocks.html

"Amer Sports has received a takeover approach from China's Anta Sports and Asian private equity firm FountainVest Partners"

Not sure if much will change for Veilance as the main company has already been sold  to a conglomerate and the aim to increase margins and DTC business has been pretty plain to see in the moves that have been made overall, but still... this will be interesting to watch. 

https://www.fastcompany.com/90205090/the-first-graphene-jacket-is-here-and-its-magical

"Magical" 

6 hours ago, kenwiryadi said:

J66-GT, what can the fraying do to the durability and performance of the jacket?

I don't believe it would impact the durability and performance too much. The main risk of leaving the edge unfinished and raw would be of the laminate peeling apart from the edge, with a teflon based membrane sticking together fabric layers isn't trivial, and having this run splitting the fabric apart from the edge. This splitting risk looks to be mitigated against by additional stitching behind the edge to stabilize it. I'd expect the main risk factors to impact performance and durability of the jacket would be the same as most waterproof breathable laminates: DWR degradation and oil contamination. I don't see these two factors impacted by the jacket directly, but if someone were to wash the jacket less in an effort to reduce the fraying there would be an increase risk of body oil build up and contamination. Time will tell. 

Sweat and oils are really bad for laminated fabrics. Both for performance and longevity. I wonder if post fabric production dyeing or other processes may have striped any oleophobic (oil repellent) treatment the fabric may have had. 

12 hours ago, the-intern said:

“Gore-Tex is the gold standard for comfort and protection in the world’s most challenging environments”

Thank fuck no-one measures against the gold standard anymore! Hahaha

Fractional reserve standard doesn't have quite the same marketing ring to it. 

Style>substance. Surface>depth. The trap of viewing of techwear as a styling of clothes, or worse shopping from an approved list of brands, over thoughtful design and the affordances that the combination of technology and design brings. 

Nice work and congratulations on getting the weight down. The lower limit for the other ultralight 3-layer taped garments seems to be around the 120ish gram range and that's with minimal features. This fabric does seem to help lower that bar significantly in the weight dept. Super exciting to see a "school project" have the possibility of becoming a commercial project and going to bulk production. 

14 hours ago, the-intern said:

 grading this to different sizes is going to be a bit of a feat methinks.

Yeah, a good brain challenge there. 

Dream Job? Might need to change your user name. Well deserved attention and not surprising that opportunities are on deck given the work you've done. Look forward to seeing that 79gram jacket. Part of me wishes they could do something more with colour on that fabric, but a different part of me likes the brutalism. 

In theory laminated micro-porous membrane textiles are interesting, but pragmatic arguments can be made against their over prescription for every use. That said, market expectations do exist and breathability is, despite there being little to no consensus / standard to what the term means at the consumer level, an expected feature for a technical hardshell fabrics to be commercially viable.  

Congratulations on the contract. Getting that first gig in creative industries always seems like a catch 22, but once you're cosigned by a brand with paying work on a product you're kind of in. Interesting to hear the comments regarding Goretex, their brand name and marketing has had such a head start that it's a big mountain to tackle for anyone who dares take on the breathable/waterproof  fabric challenge. Don't know if we'll ever see another fabric brand command as much mind or market share in the near future in that category. 

That's not me. Zero danger of your head exploding.

Very cool project(s) and loved seeing a dumpster & fence I recognize used as photo location. 

Conroy's return would be interesting. To my eyes, he set the design vision and built the blocks for the line. Other's have had to colour inside the lines that were set by his legacy to keep a through line for designs. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but could be a challenge for other designers to stick to a vision that someone else set. I'd hope to see more interesting pieces, and materials if this is true. 

I'm super sceptical with the method of construction used in the pants shown in the photos. For a shell a single needle and tape might work great, in pants it looks like a poor design choice for durabilty. You can see in the photos that the fabric edge has frayed from the stitches ripping through the fabric's unfinished edge.  The low seam allowances necessary to allow for taping risks leaving the seams too close to the fabric's edge. This in combination with the lack of a finished edge on the fabric, creates the risk of tearing and fraying of the edge overtime and stress. Crotches take a beating (you may not want to google that) and usually have construction that goes the extra mile to address this.

The construction finishes super clean and flat when done this way, too bad it looks like it is weaker in practice that regular old ugly construction. Sadly, there always seems to be some tradeoffs when pushing the edge. I hope they do warranty it as that sounds like a pretty short lifespan. 

Wash like with like. Don't mix synthetics and natural fibres. Wash inside out do up zippers. Avoid putting too coarse things with softer fabrics, a heavier denim will work as an abrasive in a machine. I've been told from a fabric supplier that Nikwax doesn't rinse out as well as Grainers. Use a clean washing machine or dryer, fabric softeners will kill DWR, if you use a shared washing machine or dryer you've got no idea if a product with a softener has been in there. If there's a membrane make sure it's rinsed out well. Hang to dry.  If heat is needed to activate the DWR do it after the piece is dry for shorter time. You can hand wash anything, but ensure you rinse really well.