tony_hige

haha my mind's turning itself round something...but i can't put my finger on it. argh.

so at any rate, if visual inspection of the yarn gauge shouldn't be an indicator of the type of spinning, and instead one should rely on feeling the texture of the yarn, then would it follow that any variations in slubbiness or the hand of a bolt of denim should be more a result of the weaving process rather than the spinning of the cotton yarn itself? because my notion of the association between slubs and ringspun thread arose from reading some of the old posts in the forum, they do suggest some link between the two. are the posts inaccurate?

nope...slub is all a byproduct of the spinning process. yes, irregularities can and will occur at every point of the milling, but slub as we know it comes from the spinning. visual inspection of the yarn gauge is not an indicator, but visual inspection of the yarn itself is: ringspun yarns are twisted, open end yarns are pressed into shape, kind of like felt. both can be fuzzy, but open end is a lot more fuzzy. to me this issue is a little like trying to tell the difference between a '50 Mercury and a '54 Buick by inspecting them through a jewellers loupe - in detail, it can be hard to tell the difference between the two, but step back three feet and the difference is obvious. denim is the same: touch and feel it and the difference is obvious, wash it once and the difference is very obvious, wear it for a year and the difference is glaringly obvious.

hm, that's interesting...i guess also that from the outside of the jean the indigo warp is elevated from the weft, hence when you kneel down you abrade the warp much more than the fill threads - logically speaking that is.

but why are the wefts usually thicker? i'd thought they would have been spun in the same batch as the warps (assuming ringspun yarn on both), or at least on the same machinery, making them similar.

Most traditional denim is what they call 3x1, meaning that the indigo goes over 3 weft yarns for every weft yarn it goes under, which is why you see mostly indigo warp yarns on the outside and mostly white weft yarns on the inside. Denim doesn't have to be 3x1, but traditionally that's how it is. Also, weft yarns don't have to be thicker than warp yarns, but that's how it is on most vintage denims - it just gives you a stronger denim. Ditto with the 3x1 weave. I do repairs of jeans for friends and I begrudgingly agreed to fix this girl's pair of seven jean that she had split. The denim was a 2x1 weave which gave it a trendy appearance, but was very weak. Sure enough she split them in the area around my repair they day after I returned them to her.

thanks for the link! the section on ring-spinning makes the process sound far more complicated than OE spinning, with the roving step taking place prior to the spinning.

i've read that it's possible to make ring/OE feel and look very similar to ringring - is there actually a huge difference in durability and texture that makes one far superior to the other?

it's amazing what you can learn by accident.

imho, not that big of a difference between ring/ring and ring/oe because the juice is in your indigo warp yarns, not the white weft fill yarns. it's true that a ring fill is stronger than an oe fill, but the fill threads are usually always thicker than the indigo threads, so when you start to wear holes in the knees you'll still get breakage in the indigo yarns first.

This site has some info about the difference between ring and oe yarns:

http://www.pcca.com/Denim/denimmanufacturing.asp

I think a lot of the confusion between the two comes from the fact that ringspun denim is much more common today than say ten or fifteen years ago - you can go to target and get a pair that probably uses ring in the warp. Fifteen years ago, that wasn't the case, and that's how Hidehiko Yamane and Adriano Goldschmied made names for themselves - while everyone else was cutting corners and fooling consumers with "perceived value" (a term frequently thrown about in the industry), these guys were focusing on the details that made vintage denim so appealing, like using ringspun denim. Now, they cut corners in different ways, like using ringspun denim from China i/o North Carolina. I sort of learned by accident - buying a pair of Levi's, wearing them almost everyday and not washing them much (because I was broke and lazy, not out of fashion), then wondering why they didn't fade as well as the hand-me-down Levi's I got from my older cousin. There are so many other factors that go into the denim milling that make the difference to the end consumer - using mercerized yarns or acrylic coatings, for example. So ten years ago, it was as simple as ringspun versus open end. Now it's more like ringspun warp/open end fill versus ring warp/ring fill mercerized yarns and acrylic coating, and that's your difference between a $40 uniqlo kurabo denim jean and a $240 nudie kurabo denim jean.

tony, could you post some up-close pics of ringspun vs. open end yarns? What am I looking for when I feel ringspun denim? Lol, I spend a crazy amount of time comparing my selvage denim vs. my cheap jeans and can't really see much of a differance in the yarns of the fabric.

have you worn a pair of each for over a year? that's when the differences are very significant. open end yarns are fuzzy and porous, so they suck up a lot of the indigo dye. because of this, you get a much less pronounced hige and honeycombing behind the knees - if you don't wash them a lot, you'll still get hige, but not so contrasty. and when they get old, the spring holes everywhere and quickly - open end yarns ar enot nearly as stong as ringspun yarns. I think I have a japanese book at work that has photos of close-ups of ringspun vs. oe yarns - I'll scan it and post it tomorrow.

can anyone validate that about nudie and uniqulo

is it just a rumour or is it true?

I'm 99% sure that nudie and uniqlo both use kurabo denim, but keep in mind that kurabo is a huge company with a vast selection of denims, so nudie could be using a much more expensive denim than what uniqlo uses. uniqlo probably also gets a break in price because they no doubt buy more yardage than nudie.

hey, my last post sounded like I was attacking tweedlesinpink's earlier reply - didn't mean to come off like that. I just geek out about this stuff.

A couple of questions, Anyone seen any selvage denim by lucky brand, Adrianno goldschmied and ddc lab. What are the qualities like?

I don't check lucky's product that often, but I do remember seeing a batch of selvage jeans at their soho store a couple years ago. My big problem with them, among other things, is that their spec totally sucks - I've never tried on a pair that came even close to fitting correctly.

You can't really see the difference between ringspun and open end denim unless you see an extreme close-up of the yarns. Ringspun yarn is rope-like, open end yarn is fuzzy. As long as I have ring in the warp (the indigo yarns), I'm happy, though ring in both warp and weft is best. You can't really tell from the yarn gauge either - you can have thick or thin yarns in either ringspun or open end. To really tell the difference, I need to feel the denim - then the difference is obvious. I don't think any higher end company like APC would use open end yarn, though I think LVC has - I bought a pair of 1933 buckle backs at the Levi's store in Berlin, and almost from the get go something didn't really seem right about them. After the first washing it became obvious that they used open end denim, which blew my mind - why go through the bother of repro-ing all the details of a vintage jean, then use cheap denim.

Title says it all really.

It would folow that no selvege denim would be open spun if that is the case.

Just following a chain of thought in my head.

Cheers!

Spinning the yarn and weaving the fabric are two complete different processes, so not all selvage denim is ring-ring. Several years ago, Canal Jean in NYC was selling a batch of Levi's 501 that were selvage denim for about $30 a pair, and that denim was all open end. I haven't inspected a pair of the cheap Uniqlo selvage jeans that people have been talking about, but my guess is that they're probably not using ring-ring either.

You may be able to get through a Japanese middle man, but other than that, I think NYC is the only other option. However, I suggest you read like a mofo, and I am sure you will be able to find a pair you would be just as happy with for a fraction of the cost. There are just so many options for Japanese denims.

I have to disagree on this one - my rby45rpm sorahikos are by far the best pair of jeans I've ever owned.

http://superfuture.com/city/supertalk/showthread.php?t=14281&page=2

I travel to japan on occasion and have tried many different brands, and the sorahikos blow them all away. the funny thing is that 45rpm is not that big in japan - you won't see them all over the lightning books, etc. my only critique is that they don't have a traditional looking selvage line, but that's minor to me. the fit, the way the indigo faded, the little details (they use a different denim on the back middle beltloop that is only revealed after a year or so of wear). find an excuse to get to nyc. or tokyo.

curious, what do you guys think of these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Levis-Nevada-circa-1880-VERY-rare-ltd-edition-LVC_W0QQitemZ260023486222QQihZ016QQcategoryZ91236QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

holy s***!!! that auction is up to $1,792.61 and there's still 11 hours to go. christ, for a repro?!?!? that's insane. speaking of repros, I wish someone would repro the levi's 1906 "spring bottom pant" jean. evis did a jean with a similar silhouette, but they didn't really get the details and, most importantly, they didn't use the light veggie indigo dye.

is there anywhere in NYC i can find a pair of raw 47's cause before i buy a pair of them online i'd really like to try them on and see how they fit.

what size are you? I've got a couple pair that I may be willing to part with - size 34, but I'll have to confirm when I get home. otherwise, since selvedge closed I've been the levi's store uptown on lex. it's hit or miss there, and common sizes don't stay for very long. atrium always carries lvc.

here you go

and here

http://superfuture.com/city/supertalk/showthread.php?t=12159&highlight=calis there are more on page 4 as well

and here...scroll down

http://superfuture.com/city/supertalk/showthread.php?p=70171&highlight=californias#post70171

and here...

http://superfuture.com/city/supertalk/showthread.php?t=10057&highlight=californias

those are amazing!

although i haven't seen it with my own eyes, i think fullcount fades very nicely.

but i'm biased.

I have a pair of fullcount and they took forever to fade. my 45rpm sorahikos seemed to fade quickly and very nicely.

I read through this whole thread and I feel really old right now.

I don't really consider myself a collector - I've gotten rid of a lot of jeans. I look at it as accummulating jeans as a process of searching for the one perfect pair - hope that doesn't sound like a load of crap. So this is what I've got right now, top to bottom, left to right:

RRL's: my current project pair - bought 'em raw in April

Pherrow's Stormy Blues: I've posted these before - my 2nd favorite - got 'em in Harajuku in April 2004

Rby45rpm Sorahiko: posted these before - my favorite - got 'em in October 2003

Rag and Bone: really digging the light organic indigo, great fit - just got 'em

Full Count: yes, I pulled out the extra stitches leaving behind the arcuate. weird fit - got 'em October 2005.

Sugar Cane: never really did fit correct so I use them as painting pants

Lee Cowboy repros by Edwin

Levi's 501 from late 70's

Levi's 501 LVC 1947

Levi's 501 LVC 1947 (folded): got these a couple months ago at the Levi's store in Shibuya where I had some laser printing put on them

Jean Shop

It occurred to me when I had to take this photo that I don't own a single non-denim pair of pants - I stood on my back deck in my boxers to take this.

So, I went to a Century 21 nearby me and I found this.

I picked them up, because I figured selvage black raw for under $50 was a pretty good deal. And it even has selvage on the coin pocket! It seems pretty heavy ( along the same weight as my apc's)

Has anyone ever heard about them? Are they any good?

I have a couple more pics if you want.

I used to work for the guy who started Greige, Cory Gomberg. That line folded and he's now at What Comes Around Goes Around. I've never inspected a pair of his jeans, but he knows his stuff and I remember him talking about going to Japan to get jeans produced. You got a deal.

You guys 101% positive that these jeans ( the raw ones ) do not shrink at all or not more than 1/2" or so waist wise ?

even with a trip to the dryer inside out like ?

Mine shrank. I lost at least 1 inch, maybe 1 1/2 off the length and maybe 3/4 - 1 inch in the waist, and the legs feel tighter. They spec them about 2" over, though, so if the marked waist says 34", it's actually 36".

...when you eat french fries, wipe your hands on your jeans, then refer to the tone they develop as a "french frie overdye"

...when the seats in your car are stained indigo, but you don't try to shampoo them out because they're starting to develop a nice contrast in the folds of the upholstery

...when you give new visitors to your house a tour of your denim. as a correlary to this, when after showing them all your faded hige denim, you start with the stacks of raw denim saying, "this will be my 2007 pair, this will be my 2008 pair, this will be my 2009 pair..."

...when you make fun of all your friends who are into myspace, then dork out and say to friends and co-workers, "hey...look what they're saying about my jeans on superfuture"

...when you actually choose a career that you know will get you jobs that a) will let you wear jeans everyday, and will involve travel to Japan

...when you poo-poo a new brand that everyone says are hot just because there's not a tiny little tuft of denim sticking up through the rivet because they didn't use real burr rivets

...when you like everything about said hot brand, so you buy a pair, take out all the rivets, buy your own 15 ligne copper burr rivets and rivet handsetting tool (from Tandy Leather) and replace them all. true story. did this twice - once to a pair of jean shop jeans, and once to apc's 'cuz I hate rivets that aren't copper and apc uses nickel rivets

...when you watch a documentary about the Shroud of Turin, realize that the micro-organisms found in human sweat that created the image on the shroud are the same micro-organisms that gradually give your unwashed jeans a yellow cast, so you start referring to your unwashed jeans as "my jesus wash." case in point: the sorahikos I posted last week.

that's it for now - I could go on for hours

do you wear them hard? work in construction, etc...?

nope...graphic design. I don't baby any jeans I wear. The only real technique I use is I spray them down with starch and blow dry them dry as I'm wearing them while sitting down. This sets the wrinkles for the hige to develop. BTW, these are the jeans that Donwan Harrell jacked for the detail of every button on the fly being a different metal color.

Insane. How did you wash those?

I don't really have a technique. I usually wear them 4 or 5 days a week when I first get them and wash them about every six months. The reality is that I'm kind of a lazy dirtbag.

Here's my second favorite: a pair of Pherrow's Stormy Blues that I got in April 2004. The pocket linings were originally plaid flannel - looked cool, but when the flannel started to spring holes, they went fast. I had to get the pocket linings replaced. These also have a little of the honeycombing right below where the front pocket linings end that was commented on with the sorahikos.

the store was in the basement when i was there 3 weeks ago, if they had moved, that explains why tony_hige thought the store closed

That's makes me happy that they just moved. So where are they now? They used to be on the second floor of a building on what I think is called Cat Street, the street that's mostly a pedestrian walkway that runs parallel to Mejii Dori.

That is a very unusual fade you have there on the left leg...it sort of seperates two sets of whiskers (hard to explain). I love when old jeans get that "aged" color...that brownish tint to them. Great jeans!

there's a little bit of that on both legs - it's from the wrinkles right below where the pocket linings end. the wrinkles get more pronounced with the more stuff I have in my pockets. it's the weird unexpected natural wear patterns from age like this that bart sights will never get quite right.