urban sprawl

just bought a canvas one w/cinch back at memes nyc: post overalls. nice fit and nice fabric.

also i like my margiela ones.

Edited by urban sprawl on May 25, 2005 at 01:46 PM

i went on the site of pennylabel and saw that they do only labels? do they weave denim?

and the nudie one, how do you guys know that they are natural indigo?

juxtapose,

i went to their site and cldnt find the dtls. only some pics of their collection. can you show me where it says they use handlooms?

what i meant by pr trick is sayin "handcrafted"and all the terms you were calling out is just a gimmick. warum bist du so launisch? since michiko is not so well known for premium denim i'm just being careful.

you can weave on handlooms if you have 3 yrs leadtime. you were asking i was tryin to answer. it didnt occur to me that you were ONLY asking about the weaving process. sorry for taking your time.

assuming those handwoven jeans exist. would this denim be superiour to selvage denim made by shuttle looms?

i dont know about superior. in terms of quality or aesthetic? i assume that the construction and the weave will be less strong but imagine that it will have beautiful slubs and balls and all the other irregularities. but for sure it's superior in terms of commitment (time, money).

juxtapose,

thx for giving your insight of michiko. very interesting.

dont want to be an a$$ but this seems to me more like a PR thing (same as gap using a new technology of weaving called left-hand-twill)

- the shuttlelooms i know of are all hand-operated. i dont know if there are any newer shuttle looms. from good sources i hear that shuttle looms arent manufactured anymore (paul: do you knw when it stopped? but then wild whiskey mentioned there's some hk ones?...doubts'p

- almost all denim (incl mass products) are (in a way) handcrafted. if you use potasium pragmagenet, you spray it on. if you sandblast it, you use a gun. obvioulsy if you sand, you get all dusty... even if you use laser, you need to use the mouse!))

- handlooms are so narrow that you might only weave your coinpocket...

- most good quality denim are ropedyed and have ring at warp/weft. the cotton from zimbabwe is good but there are better ones (eg: pima). again, prps did good marketing! the fact that as you said it is natural indigo makes the difference. this is the creme de la creme! this is the most time consuming part (dyeing process and if it's washed the wet process, since the indigo penetrates the fibres so strongly). alternatively to liquor and honey, they use coal or urine for fermentation.

i think they're worth mentioning. thx.

i would love to see the pair. i love it when the leg twists. nowadays, they dont anymore because of sanforizing (non-shrinkage) and skewing (non-twist). unless you get the engineered or rogan.

i even love it when they dont singe it!;PPPP

i only know of 3 brands who have natural indigo: 45rpm, studio d'artisan, kato.

does anyone know some more?

Edited by urban sprawl on May 25, 2005 at 08:12 AM

i agree w/ superslim. i assume we all agree on that... trying to be more authentic...but how true can you be nowadays?

i feel that we need to look forward by knowing the past. dont get me wrong, i love vintage to death. but sometimes i find myself wondering/wandering why reproduce 100% (slubs, certain details, etc ), why rub-off exactly (like real mccoy, rrl, etc)? certainly, there's this great appreciation of the old-school, the imperfect, the wabi, the naivite (eames, air jordan 1, selvedge, vinyl), and then there're all this repro because it sells.

sorry. just thinking loud and maybe playin devil's advocate...;p

anyways...

ringring, you know what is funny? people at the mills tell me how easy their lives are nowadays since it's the TREND of vintage/imperfect denim - meaning less rejection from qc...

also i wanted to point out that the shuttle is much slower hence stronger than the jet looms.

and these perfect faults mills create by using emsler is a mystery to me too... sorry guys, but the weather here sucks. it rains and is cold.....

paul, can you see this pic?

also you can check olah.com. these guys know the game. in fact one of them, michael m., teaches part-time a course of denim @ f.i.t. and does "company training" for free.

fyi, olah is an agent representing kurabo japan/hk, cobra, suape, etc...

weee, it's like a freestyle battle here...!

did anyone go to the cone anniversary party in NC 2 weeks ago?

for presentation i usully wrinkle/roll the legs up, spray them and put it in the dryer. nice and warm...;P

+++++++++++++++++++++++from an old post:

posted: Mar 26, 2005 10:14 AM msg. 49 of 184

as ringring said the term "ring-ring" is more a technical term. basically it means that the warp and weft are ring-spun - kinda "cashmere of denim"!

after the 70's "open-end" spinning was introduced. this spinning basically skips several processes that ring yarns go through. for the same reason as non-selvedge: faster, cheaper, more effecient.

later, to kinda replicate ring/ring, they introduced "faux-ring" or "ring/oe". basically the warp is ring and the weft is open-end spun. hence you keep the price down but get a stronger denim than just oe on both. but that's not the real mccoy right?!

usually, or if you happen to have lots of time to look at denim for some odd reason, you can see the difference between ring/ring or oe. but nowadays, it's tougher to distinguish between ring/ring and ring/oe since they try to fake the slubbyness or irregularities.

another factor of the strength but also beauty of denim is how the twill was woven. the more common construction is 2x1 or 3x1. the latter one is the more expensive but also the more stronger one.

contrary to ringring's statement, i think it makes a difference whether you spin it on a shuttle loom or 60"wide loom. the machines are so different that it will effect the denim - time makes a difference. but there's bad and cheap selvedge out there with weak constructions!

another important thing is the dyeing process. i have been reading here some stuff about natural indigo (such as the studio d'artisan)... well if you don't mind i would like to write something about it.')

there are many techniques of dyeing and also with what. there's rope dyeing, ring dyeing, sulphur dyeing, etc...

good authentic ring indigo denim is rope dyed. threads are gathered to ropes and dyed in several baths of indigo, then washed dried beamed and finally woven.

at ring dye, only the outer ring of fibres are dyed, leaving the core undyed therefore easier to get hi-lows later. also to enhance the effect you can mercerize it.

most of the denim in the market are pure indigo - a petroleum based synthetic dye or sulphur indigo. here the warps are treated either prior the dye (sulphur bottom) to keep the core of the yarn from the indigo, or after the dye (sulphur top). pure indigo has no sulphur dye.

natural indigo, as most of you know is harvested from the plant such as indigofera, storobilanthes and polygonum. the whole process is very time-consuming and not cheap. i heard that during the fermentation process urine is used...?!

++++++++++++++++++++

anyways, we had this interesting and very challenging converstaion that selvedge does not equal always good fabric. or shuttle loom vs projectile loom: is there a different when you have the same yarn-count, construction, twill, indigo dye weaving it in 2 different looms?

what do you guys think?

superslim,

i think now you get the attention...hehe!

well, what about 45rpm? since you live in bklyn (right?) take the n,r train...;p

ringring posted a link to http://www.works-corp.com/iron/twenty_one/index.html. they might look cute on ya! but then you cant get them here.

also sunday ones i like.

but tsubi? i dunooooooo. c'mon you dont wanna mess w/diesel...

have u tried on the levi's super slim with the tappered leg? they're cute...

if you gonna take in your denim go to 45rpm, they have a chainstitch machine.

good night.

Quote:

I thought selvage denim was 3-4 yards per jean? Am I mistaken?

You're not mistaken.

--- Original message by ringring on May 21, 2005 11:53 AM

well it depends if you wanna have selvedge on the waistband!;p. also how wide the fabric is...

but generally you can say 2.7 yrds by 28".

Edited by urban sprawl on May 23, 2005 at 08:15 PM

Edited by urban sprawl on May 23, 2005 at 08:15 PM

yep. $10.

went to memes the other day and saw some nice denim from "post overalls". nice selvedge fabric... for your list ringring!;P

Quote:

Email me that info, I'd be interested.

Re Cone, I remember the story of their looms from when Evis started out - it was in regard to Evis that people started talking about Levi's (or, of course, Cone) selling their looms. But the Levi's style r/h twill fabric Evis used from the beginning came from Kurabo - this is according to Adriano Goldschmied, who backed Evis in the early days, and was one fo the first people to use Kurabo for modern selvage jeans, way back in the mid 80s. And Kurabo might have the odd US loom, but they're not the mainstay. So I think that story started out as mostly spin, and the notion that the Japanese suddenly started making selvadge BECAUSE they'd bought COne looms in the mid 80s, is basically false.

However, this doesn't mean that lots of smaller operation haven't bought Cone looms - and I'd love to know if anyone has. But, as the people I know who've spend lots of time at Cone, all the big and many of the small Japanese mills have pointed out, buying second hand looms, repairing them, shipping them and maintaining them wouldn't make sense for most Japanese mills; buying Japanese looms would almost certainly be cheaper.

Of course, that does leave the question of where all those old US looms went, whether from Cone, or defunct outfits like Erwin mills all across the south. My guess would be they were scrapped - but it's just a guess. What does strike me is that, while the shuttle-looms-to-Japan story is endemic, all the people who should be able to verify it seem doubtful that it happened.

--- Original message by Paul T on May 22, 2005 12:22 PM

man it's getting more and more interesting. we shld write a detective story...?!

re the mill, do you mind revealing an email? do you design or merchandise?

paul,

if you're in nyc you can get them hemmed at 45rpm's store. i go there and they can do it right away since they have it downstairs. ask for john.

ooowwww thx! did you check summerstage.org? also there's a link for some really good shows in brklyn and bronx!!!

man this sounds gorey! i just watched texas chainsaw...

what kinda move?

depends which country and how much you wanna pay or sell them for.

i am not feeling evisu anymore. esp these crazy cheezy washes and details and bad fabrics. not to say these ones with millions of gulls...

but i love evis!

Edited by urban sprawl on May 20, 2005 at 08:57 PM

- sinn 142ts gsg9

- iwc aquatimer

- casio touchscreen from the 80s!

this is really interesting. i was just at cone and the merchant said that they only have something like 20 shuttle looms now. hence the long long leadtime. also they were saying that they had only one person who could master and fix it and suddenly died.

then i saw an old pics with 100s...

i think the rumor from the 90s is that cone sold them to japan. it states in so many books. but if paul t is right then the myth is all over and we basically can say how lazy bastardos...;p

paul, i found this awesome mill through amhot called kato. so crazzzzzy beautiful. they have also some natural indigos for $25/yrd. let me know if you want the info.

you guys were saying that more mills will produce selvedge? shuttle looms aren't produced anymore hence how can selvedge be more "commercial" or am i wrong? also who does really care about selvedge (or cashmere or uji green tea) - only crazy nerds!;p

why hatin' ppl who just try to make overlock outseams more beautiful? but then they're ppl like a+f who use a twill tape and sew it under the felled to replicate...bs!!!!

i dunno, saw so many selvedge @ h&m, yakpak, topman - this doesn't mean that the quality is better (check ringring and my conversation: http://www.superfuture.com/city/supertalk/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=817&start=91)

also the qlties i saw from legler, bossa, and some other european mills wasnt that interesting. but i'm kinda diggin the italdenim ones.

superslim: you might be not cool for school but in our eyes...yeah!;p

if you're slim and love raw selvedge, then why dont you try some jeans from japon? btw have you tried the vintage LEVIS for women with high rise? i think that cld be cool...?

does anyone know what mill the apc denim is from?

ringring,

never heard of this brand...;p

the straighlegs look sick. but better the women's one....ooowwwwwweeeeeeee!;p

have you seen them in real?

ringring,

you seem to have lots of time?!

amazing...thx.

it's so crazy: every mornin in the subway i see all those guys wearing the apc's (btw, also wearing white earplugs!)/// ok i have to admit that the fit is flattering but the details sucks. also that they are produced in macau...

skec8er: hehe, it's all good. i'm still waitin for my D1177 21oz. it seems their needles keep breakin!;p

hahnstch: got half of them in asia and the rest from the japanese bookstore in nyc. i think i got about 30 mags/book (but 1/3 is sneakers)...

skecr8er & co,

did you pick up the new "real mccoy" mag? also the new lightning mag w/ tokyo stores?

so you say sugar canes are wack? hmmm dunno about that. i personally love joy mccoys and looking for the 901's? do you know any deadstocks?

also i think the latest studio d'artisan stuff are super nice....

Edited by urban sprawl on Apr 27, 2005 at 12:47 PM