Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[Sugar Mountain]

Thanks for the tip on the book Unders, just ordered it.

 

From anywhere on this side of the world or just Amazon?

[Iron Horse]

From anywhere on this side of the world or just Amazon?

Nope, I settles for an eBay seller seller in the UK.

[Articulate]

Any other book recommendations for denim/fashion/Japan/workwear/etc.?

[unders]

Paul T's book Denim: From Cowboys to Catwalk is a very good book. It's always a struggle to get denim-related books with quality, informative content whilst not overdoing the images. This strikes the balance really well for me.

[FreeCharlesManson]

someone here predicted it. denimio is collaborating  (allegedly) with  oni on an  indigo x indigo denim https://www.instagram.com/p/BBeX8HPIL_C/?taken-by=denimio_shop

Edited February 7, 2016 by FreeCharlesManson

[Frost]

So they do a collab with Samurai, then they start a contest with Samurai and Oni in which the Samurai collab isn't allowed to participate, and then after the contest has started (although I don't know for sure because I haven't heard anything about it since the announcement) they do another collab with Oni? I mean, great for them if they have enough people willing to throw money their way, but it doesn't make much sense in my opinion..

[FreeCharlesManson]

So they do a collab with Samurai, then they start a contest with Samurai and Oni in which the Samurai collab isn't allowed to participate, and then after the contest has started (although I don't know for sure because I haven't heard anything about it since the announcement) they do another collab with Oni? I mean, great for them if they have enough people willing to throw money their way, but it doesn't make much sense in my opinion..

yeah wait six months or so so people can actually get fades on their new jeans 

[Max Power]

Oni is one brand that never catches my interest. Not sure why, but they don't appeal much to me.

[Cold Summer]

Yeah same here, I never got the appeal of Oni. They're too over the top for me and I don't like their branding. 

[Flash]

the denim looks very engineered and exaggerated  

[chicote]

For me it's the cuts that Oni offers that really put it over the top (or under the bottom, perhaps...) the weird robot denim, were it in a true repro cut, might keep things within an acceptable level of gimmick-ness, but I think the low-med rise carrot fit that is generally on parade instead makes the whole thing seem quite absurd.

 

Also, I know these things are brought up every time we cast Oni in a critical light, but the absurd sales pitch and poor quality of the denim and construction don't do them any favors either.

[Broark]

I agree with what's been said here, something about Oni is a bit off.

Their cuts aren't the most flattering (to me at least) and it seems like they have some QC issues as well.

I remember they used to be touted as a very small production brand, but clearly that isn't the case anymore.

That being said I've never been a big fan of over exaggerated and loud denim myself.

[FeloniousMonk]

I like their standard denims, the 14.5oz and 16.5oz XX. Sure they use a lot of loom chatter and slub, but it's no crazier than PBJ or Strike Gold denim. Hell, the new Strike Gold collaboration with Self Edge is going to be even more ridiculous than anything I've seen from Oni. It's fun, though I definitely understand it not being to everyone's taste.

 

Not gonna argue the construction though. Oni definitely isn't up to snuff with the better brands on that point.

 

They seem to be hitting a cashing-out point though, with the flood of supply they've dumped on the market in the past year. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the brand now that they're quite obviously no longer a super-niche player.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

The question also is: was Oni really so small like BiG made us believe? The story of the old master weaver that operates the loom and that stuff. Apparently Oni has a lot supply of denim to produce many jeans in different styles. Denimio shows how broad their range is.

[itsbenhere]

Oni and Denimio are a perfect fit.

 

Just me or denimio is super lame? It's a shame you can't beat their return policy and prices, because to me it seems like they know how passionate people are about the products and they try and tap into that in their copy, but you can tell it's forced and that they aren't passionate themselves. I mean, even on product pages, there's nothing about the goods, it's just all return instructions?

 

You can tell it's just a business to them, not a passion.

[spitfiredealer]

I must say i bought into the small company idea with one old man making the denim and got myself a pair from a few years back. But not for one minute do i believe that is the case now and i am very skeptical that was ever case. I do really like my pair but wouldn't ever get another pair.

[FreeCharlesManson]

I used to really like the idea of Oni and how exclusive they were, but now they are so popular they stopped appealing to me. Their secret denim is still good looking to me but i wouldn't buy it in a pair of jeans. 

[Geeman]

Most of Denimios product pages do have descriptions but there are a fair few missing. It seems when an item goes out of stock they take the description off then it takes them a while to put it back after restock.

[Frost]

Yeah, ONI screams of marketing bullshit. When you first start getting into raw denim, ONI (used to) appear(s) to be this almost mythical brand, one guy making it, no one knows anything about it, very limited, crazy fabric... But nowadays they are so easily accessible and there are so many different models and fabrics that the whole thing almost looks mass-produced and comical, especially considering the brand's supposed image. When I started out, I always wanted a pair of ONI's, but nowadays they are very very far down on the list, if they are still on there at all.

 

I like Denimio well enough, they have a great customer service, fast shipping, and are very pleasant to deal with. Just these recent events I have outlined above have left a bad taste in my mouth, and I didn't even buy any Samurai/ONI.

[Max Power]

As we're having this discussion over at the IHF and I think it apllies to other brands as well: What's your opinion on limited stuff (and the possibility of remaking it)? It seems like there are the collectors that value some items more because they're rare. They strongly oppose a remake of those items. I, on the other hand, would prefer the approach of a full broad range of stuff, that's always available. Let's say like the core range of TFH or RMC. I'd also like to see some of the rare stuff being remade to have a wider choice.

 

While I think it's cool to own limited stuff I prefer being able to chosse to buy it whenever I have the funds and not just when the Special release becomes available. I also think that some items just land in collections and don't get the wear they deserve to become really beautiful. Sometimes I feel like the value of that stuff is just seen in the possession, not the use. And speaking of clothes, especially raw denim, that's a weird development IMO.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Max Power

[beautiful_FrEaK]

That’s really a good question!

 

I have mixed opinions. Special jeans like a collab or an anniversary pair should be of course limited. Otherwise it would take out the whole meaning of those one-run editions. And I have to admit that would be less special to me when they are widely available.

 

I have the feeling that usually the guys who own those rare “grail-items†are against a re-run because maybe the item loses its special flair. And when they paid more than retail to get those items, they might be pissed when the item is later available again for the standard retail price.

And the ones who missed out on old or limited editions are rather pro a re-run so they can get those sought after pieces.

 

From a collector’s point of view I get the hunt and the satisfying feeling when you finally get the pair/item you searched for so long. Looking through Rakuten und Taobao for old Denime was a fun experience and still is. But let me tell you, I paid a small fortune for my deadstock pair of Denime 66XX in my size…still I would prefer if I could easily buy them from Rakuten for their standard price

 

So in short: limited editions like collabs or anniversary pairs have their right to exist and are great in my opinion. Producing single runs of “ordinary†stuff is less attractive to me (like those tiny runs of IH-shirts that started this debate )

Edited February 8, 2016 by beautiful_FrEaK

[Frost]

This is definitely an interesting discussion.

 

I think that collaborations and limited releases in general are great, because they add a certain level of excitement to the game. When a special release is well thought out by all parties involved, the exclusiveness certainly adds to the desirability of the product - who doesn't want to wear a pair of jeans that's limited to fifty pairs worldwide?

 

The problem is, as Max pointed out, if this leads to a movement away from 'wearing' and more towards 'owning' the denim. I don't see a problem here with people who are actually collectors of a certain brand or whatever - because I think ultimately, it is their intention to wear the pair (even if only in 20 years from now, because they have enough lying around) or own a piece of history (i.e. vintage Levi's). The thing is though, and luckily, I haven't noticed this with denim YET, that there are people in the world who want to make a profit of this exclusiveness by buying up stuff and reselling it.

 

This also relates nicely to the discussion about ONI - the brand had this image of being "limited" and "hard to get", but it looks more and more like this was very much fabricated marketing. This I don't like at all. It reminds me of whisky, where certain distilleries produce "special releases" every year, with more and more ridiculous pricing, although the prices are in no way, shape or form warranted for the product itself, just for the limited numbers. I feel like denim has a long way to go before this happens.

 

Related to this - who in the whisky world is willing to pay these prices? Real collectors, who want to own (and eventually drink!) every bottling from a specific distillery, and people who are looking to make a quick buck. Similar things are happening in the sneaker world, where reselling is really out of control and you have to be quick and lucky to even get a chance to buy a certain shoe.

 

I really hope that denim will not move into this direction, so every new "exclusive" and "special" release that pops up makes me worried, simply because it looks to me like there are a lot more than a couple of years ago. Sure, this could just be because the market has gotten bigger, but I still keep my eye out because I don't want to buy into anything that has ruined other fields I enjoy. In the end, I only buy denim I want to wear, and not a pair I want to keep locked away because it's "special".

[Max Power]

^I'm glad you brought the Whisky comparison up (wanted to that myself but I do it all the time). It saddens me that those 62 year old Dalmores and 70 year old Mortlachs waste away in the shelf, far from the actual purpose.

 

I'd rather have the opportunity to get a base core range from each brand (clothing or Whisky) that's available for decent prices (alt least not raised by rich collectors). Might just be me, but I feel better getting something that i can exchange if it doesn't fit, rebuy if I outgrow it or just get another piece of later. Those limited Editions certainly make you feel bad if you use / "waste" them while putting them to the intended use.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Max Power

[setterman]

I like established brands with a core line, where they rotate special models in and out every few years, or there are slight variations in a model from season to season.  Perfect example being the Warehouse 1003 (WWII).  It was there in 2010 for the Anniversary, skipped a couple years, a has since floated in and out of the line up from season to season, usually with slight differences from year to year.  

 

What I don't like are the special editions that are basically just to get more excitable denim heads to open their wallets.  "A limited run denim with special buttons, only 100 pairs will be made.  $345".  Stick your hype up your ass.  

 

Thankfully that's pretty well died down here, but from what I can tell the growing denim (and other related expensive clothing items) market is in South East Asia.  They're sufu 2009, and more than willing to fork out the money for something special and limited.  That's why you see some stores churning out the collabs.   

 

As for sitting on limited items as collector's item rather than wearing them, that's not new. I can think of at least one member here who over the years has bought more jeans than he could wear in a life time.  And it's just going to lead to a bunch of dark starchy jeans in a closet or chest, that no one will give you retail for five years down the line.  You've got so many special editions made by so many brands or stores, they're in no way an investment or all that special anymore.         

Edited February 8, 2016 by setterman

[Foxy2]

True, a lot of the limited stuff is not going to stand the test of time and will only be desirable to a limited audience and simply because it was limited - certainly not because it is/was exceptional...

A lot of the stuff I find desirable and worth hunting for was in fact never intended as a limited run - it just ran out of production at one point or became old and hard to come by these days.

Sneakers and whisky i would still consider altogether different animals compared to Japanese Denim, even historic Levis.

[Cold Summer]

Pronto is a good example of a store that's kinda flooded the (local) market with too many collabs and special models. 

[Flash]

limited edition models can be cool but if they are sold with the notion that they are a one time deal ( and being a limited release kind of implies that ) then doing another run is pretty dishonest 

[beautiful_FrEaK]

I'll just leave that here...so much awesomeness

 

 

[Sugar Mountain]

We all owe these guys a lot. Wish Miki Tsujita was also in the shot!

[Max Power]

Yamane would have gotten negative reps in the WAYWT haha. But Hayashi looks on point, as always.